Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Talk about anything EE related and doesn't belong in another forum. Gameplay, chit-chat, or any questions you have -- it all belongs here.

Best EE'er of all time?

Samuel
8
5%
Omega
8
5%
ras
14
10%
Epic
9
6%
Wolvy
2
1%
Phobia/Zeke
17
12%
lion_
7
5%
Bones
6
4%
Krass
36
25%
BE
4
3%
Elfanor
5
3%
Lavanger
7
5%
Twisted Bum
2
1%
Goldeneye
16
11%
Captain Nemo
5
3%
 
Total votes: 146

_DavE_
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by _DavE_ »

If we're strictly taking all settings into account, then there's only like 3-4 players that need to be considered tbh.

If we're breaking it down into specific settings then there's many more.

But, going off ALL settings, then the list is very simple.

Krass
Arntzen
Goldeneye
Lion

I genuinely don't believe anyone else even deserves to be mentioned (ALL settings, Pre, Liga, Mid, Grens, Indy TL, Mod SH/DM/TL) etc

seizmic
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

_DavE_ wrote:If we're strictly taking all settings into account, then there's only like 3-4 players that need to be considered tbh.

If we're breaking it down into specific settings then there's many more.

But, going off ALL settings, then the list is very simple.

Krass
Arntzen
Goldeneye
Lion

I genuinely don't believe anyone else even deserves to be mentioned (ALL settings, Pre, Liga, Mid, Grens, Indy TL, Mod SH/DM/TL) etc
You listed a guy who never even played in the original EE lobby.

Also, I beat lion_ 4-2 in liga in my first six games at it, he was helping me "learn" the setting, he was better than me at Mod TL which he won 3-1, gren wars? That's fucking scenario level settings. I did play it around thirty times on EEC and won most of my 1v1s by simply rushing my first grens out as fast as possible to the enemies mines, that was enough to beat 90% of the players who played it for years.

Crushed lion in Indy as well, he really didn't know how to micro with Cav very well.

So from your list alone, one of the four players you mentioned I ended up beating more than losing over a wide range of settings.

Also, Witchking, don't forget who made you. "Mini seizmic" - Krass, Assys - 2007.

Here's the real list:

Enigma
Icestorm
Goldeneye
Zealot
Force Field
Lion

Honourable mentions:

ras_ he genuinely took the time to help me learn liga on EEC and was a Jack of all trades, good at everything but never the best.

Pyro_ any setting from the epoch Mid and below, he was a powerhouse.

Buttfreek - first guy to humiliate lion @ mid sh. Great mod player too, underrated.

Special mention for Witchkings list:

Calv lolol

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Arntzen
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

seizmic wrote:I 1v1d in liga, mod tl, indy tl, mid sh and even fucked around in p2s but that setting is dog shit because I used to just kill every animal on the map and it would turn into club men wars.
What I meant was I assumed when you said you "never lost a series from March 06-November 06" that you were speaking of Mid SH 1v1 AoC. Were you talking about any setting? I've never heard you mentioned in discussions about "the best players" in any other settings than Middle. Which by the way is not a critique. Becoming amazing in Middle and dominating in a period when EE was busier is a great accomplishment.
seizmic wrote:Also lol @ how little you know about me.
Didn't you only start this game in 2012? You're not even apart of the games real online competitive history or period, which explains why you'd think I only played mid sh.
That's so funny, because it's so mutual.
When I started is actually irrelevant if the subject is if I'm good or not. All that matters then is skill. If you must know I got EE in 03 (I was 9 years old at the time), but I was pretty awful until maybe 2009.
seizmic wrote: You listed a guy who never even played in the original EE lobby.
Irrelevant and false.
seizmic wrote: Also, I beat lion_ 4-2 in liga in my first six games at it, he was helping me "learn" the setting, he was better than me at Mod TL which he won 3-1, gren wars? That's fucking scenario level settings. I did play it around thirty times on EEC and won most of my 1v1s by simply rushing my first grens out as fast as possible to the enemies mines, that was enough to beat 90% of the players who played it for years.

Crushed lion in Indy as well, he really didn't know how to micro with Cav very well.

So from your list alone, one of the four players you mentioned I ended up beating more than losing over a wide range of settings.
With all due respect a series of 6 games, all though it says something, doesn't really say a lot. If the players are somewhat equal, over lets say 100 games, it's probable one winning 10 games in a row and it could end 50-50.
Sometimes you have a bad day. Sometimes you've had a long gaming session before someone shows up to 1vs1 you and you're tired af and play poorly.
seizmic wrote:Here's the real list:
Lists like these are ultimately subjective. We don't have any kind of data to go on besides memories, some tournaments and few screenshots here and there.
Even if we did have complete track record of all games played in EEC and EEAoC we'd still be arguing about which period in time is most important, which settings are most important, who peaked at what time (beating a rusty lion means jack shit for most people) which again would be subjective.
seizmic wrote: Enigma
Icestorm
Goldeneye
Zealot
Force Field
Lion
I do have very limited knowledge of most of these, and I would claim you know just as little about players post 2010.
Never the less, interesting list.
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Samuel
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

I think I am possibly the person who can reply more effectively on the topic of Ligasetting. I don't know you Seizmic even though your name is not new, and since I don't know you I will refrain from judging you in any possible way.
To justify my previous claim, I started Liga in 2002 and whilst at the beginning I was just too young to have gotten good at all, I do remember the exact "build orders" (when I still believed they were important in Liga) of players from clan RS from a few games. I have also played ras a solid 30-40 1vs1, and Goldeneye for a good 100 1vs1 (remember I am just talking about Ligasetting).
I have also played Krass countless times and many of what Seizmic would call "newer players", which is why I think I am the better equipped person here to make an attempt at a comparison.

Funnily enough I agree with you on ras, Seizmic, I played him often and at some stage I was winning more games off him than I was losing, but then again I was still away from my best condition. He is still a true legend, and possibly the best library concerning players from 2002 - 2008.

Goldeneye was really good, definitely one of the best players to have played the game. He had some limits in regards to Actions per minute (which were considerably low, when he switched to sc2 after 500 games he averaged a mere 40 Actions per minute, which is really low by ANY standard). Defensively he was sick, and possibly the best ever in regards to long games. As for my result with Goldeneye, I won only around 30% of my liga games with him, and for fairness I am not counting the games we played when he'd just gotten back. I wasn't at my best there yet so it would be so much fun to try him out today!

As for these players you have no idea about I only wish you could make a simple cogitatio and realize that admitting you know nothing about them and then trying to make an argument about them only makes you look like a total fool.
As a matter of fact, I welcome you to come back online and give it a try! Are you aware you could have played a couple of games already?

It feels like you need to post random statements as a cover up for your inability to come and prove your point.

My LIGA list, not putting myself into the equation:

1_Krass
2_Arntzen
3_Goldeneye
4_Kirac

koolgurl
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by koolgurl »

Samuel - are you Dymis from Empire Earth? (early 2000's)..

_DavE_
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by _DavE_ »

Seizmic - What makes you think your list is correct? This entire thread is all about different players opinions.

However, having been one of the rare players that played from early 2004 till today, on and off here and there, I believe I have one of the most accurate opinions because I've seen literally all these players in action throughout the years. And played them as well. Some more than others.

Icestorm - Yes, he was one of the strongest AOC Middle players, but best of all time all settings, No.
Enigma - He was only ever good after 10 F11, Had a very unique strategy that was only good when given the time.
Zealot/Lion - For me, these two are the BEST players from the oldschool era.
Pyro - He was good, but after one week of you training me, I won him pretty easily....

The fact of the matter is, EE, like all games, and sports, evolve over time and the standard just keeps getting better and better.

Like I said, I've seen every single one of these players in their prime during different eras.

Krass, Arntzen, Goldeneye.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

@Arntzen, yeah, I don't know why I thought you listed a post lobby player, I was probably drunk when I wrote that, though I don't see it as irrelevant and I'll explain why.

To decide whether someone's the best you have to look at their competition and achievements. I'd argue a guy who dominates a setting with fifty active experts is better than one who dominates the same with eight active experts. Depth of competition means a lot. Quality means a lot, too, obviously and you could argue the guy who dominated eight guys had tougher competition but there's no real way to discern this.

My point with the lobby is this, I competed and dominated (at one setting and was certainly considered expert in several others on both games) in an era where there were 300-600 players in the lobby, where there were several 4v4s in the same setting going on simultaneously.

There was a thread on the MPA forums near the end of 06 where pretty much all the mid experts had me as the best mid 1v1er. Now, do I think I'm the best of all time? No, but does my name deserve to be on this list more than most of the names on there? One hundred percent. As does Zealot, as does Enigma and as does a lot more, Icestorm for sure.

Consider this, would Muhammad Ali still be considered the greatest heavyweight of all time if he fought today's heavyweights? Or did he need that huge depth of competition with names like Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton and George Chuvalo? That's the point I'm making.

I don't know how good you are but you weren't good when it mattered. No fault of your own, you just joined at the wrong time.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

@Witchking

That whole "standards keep getting better and better" only really applies to athletics and physical fitness and it's more to do with PEDs.

You can't really make that argument for online gaming over a twenty year period, at most.

In fact, the changes you talk about in sports is generational, which would mean you wouldn't still be competing.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

@Witchking, also your lack of knowledge on Enigma tells me a lot, did you ever see him play Mod TL or Liga?

Everyone here talks about lion like me and him weren't close friends, too, he would only log on half the time if I was there with him. He was an Aussie from the gold coast.

Trust me, my history of this game, knowledge of it and experience in it is second only to Icestorms at this point.

I met Elfanor on AOE3, too and I can tell you from his own mouth, he only played EE for six months.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by _DavE_ »

I saw him play Mod TL where I consider him to better there than he was in Middle Sh, simply because his style suited Mod TL a lot more. AoC players really rarely played Liga.. It was much more of a regular EE setting.

I've always mentioned your name when people talk about the strongest Mid SH players through the times.

I disagree with that really, even in todays games, yes there are a lot fewer players, but I'd always choose quality over quantity... The different strategies used in todays Middle 1v1s I never even saw back on the Sierra servers, things evolve and change like anything.

To be completely honest, in terms of Middle SH, Enigma and Black Cobra (aka HoTT) are the most over rated players I've seen in my time. I got along well with Iggy, but he was only ever good at a certain point in the game. He was weak during the early stages, very vulnerable.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

Really, what's changed?

I'd wager the exact same civs and strategies are used. I appreciate the acknowledgement, it seems captain nemo (lol) who knew me himself fancies himself superior to the likes of me, zealot, icestorm and other unmentioned.

I agree Enigma wasn't at his best in Mid but that was more by choice than lack of skill. He was a powerhouse at Mod TL and Liga.

I've never seen anyone rate Cobra_ as anything more than lion_'s shadow.

I have to ask and don't take this the wrong way, if things are so much harder now.....why wasn't you the best in 2006?

You've offered no refute or counter points to my arguments, simply said you disagree because quality > quantity (a point I ready addressed) but do tell how much better 1v1s are in Mid SH now there's....erm...four players?

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Arntzen
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

seizmic wrote:Really, what's changed?
I'll try to explain my perspective on the topic "player from sierra era versus player from save-ee/NeoEE", maybe it'll make you see where I'm coming from.

When it comes to old experts returning (from November 2008 until the present) there has IMO been a clear gap between them and whoever is considered the current best player, with few exceptions of players that quickly was able to compete. Some examples being: KrasS in all setts, Co Death in P2N/P2S, BONES in liga, Lavanger in Mid/Mod and BGC in Liga. Note that I'm saying compete with the current best, I'm not saying completely dominate. The only player who's returned to EE and been able get more wins than losses as far as I'm aware is KrasS.

The vast majority of the returning experts have simply been outmatched. Really just putting in an average performance. Most of them then left without causing an impact, though some have stayed, played off their rust and adapted to the current meta/playstyle and improved.
Of course one shouldn't put too much emphasis on how someone who hasn't played for years and only sticks around for two weeks or so is performing. But to me certain things are quite revealing, like someone playing a civ/strategy/style that simply won't work anymore and then being stunned by disbelief when they get countered. Or showing a lack of understanding about fundamentals like scouting, map awareness and game reading ability.
It's also quite telling that the old players returning (except for a few exceptions) have to adapt to how the current players play, and not the other way around. Take someone like AOE_WATER [L] who is considered one of the best in P2N. He came back after a break and found that his pocket civilizations and strategies were completely outdated.

To be fair: Out of the players that only really played with rust while they were online and quickly left again, a few played in such a way that they convinced me they must've been really good at their peak. I believe you're one of them in Middle based on the few games you played when you and Icestorm returned. And I think if you were to start playing again it would be interesting to see how good you could get. That being said there hasn't been anyone who's convinced me they're better than the best eCs.

So what's changed?
I believe the skill ceiling has increased. Why? Because I was able to compete with the best in 2012, and I've gotten much better since then. Despite that I still have tough competition today. Returning players find they have to step up their game to compete. Of course, some of the players who still play have also gotten worse. I'm convinced splinter and kirac are just shadows of their old selves at this point. Partly because they play less, partly due to aging and also because they simply don't care as much anymore. Some also plateaued at a certain level because they refused to change/practice and are practically time machines of how games used to be played. Exposing themselves as a step or two behind the very best.

Based on this, and much more (I could go on but I think this sufficiently explains by POV), I'm convinced any old player returning would have a really hard time. At least in the beginning. All sett players like Zeke, Lavanger and BONES were good enough based on what I've seen that I believe they would be able to catch up. But I truly believe they would have to catch up. Of course I could be dead wrong.
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Black Star
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Black Star »

So I started playing EE way too late to give a proper judgement in this OldSchool vs NewSchol discussion.

But I'm playing AoE2 on a good level. I can tell you everyone there agrees that the expert legends from 15 years ago would barely be average players by now, if you only take into account their gameplay. The game has evolved on such a drastic level, its not even worth comparing. Still some of those are worshipped as the best players until now, because of their accomplishments and the fact that wihtout doubt they would become top players in today period aswell.
Its simply the overall skill evolving so drastically, some of that even simply due to technical resstrictments like Input delay and lag or in AoE2s case resolution.

Now of course AoE2's playerbase hasnt evolved like EEs has and I dont wanna say that EE skill has changed in the same way. I just wanted to give an extreme example that the improvemt of skill standard is a valid thing to take into account. Of course this only makes it so much harder to rate players and compare players from different eras.
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_DavE_
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by _DavE_ »

Firstly, I admit that you have more knowledge on Enigma than I do. I never even saw him play Liga, I didn't realise he even played regular EE.. (Did he play Liga there, or AoC)

Strategies, and timing attacks have changed. Of course some of the old meta is still used here and there, but like Arntzen is referring too, it is outdated. Heck, even Samuel who stopped playing for a year came back recently and found some of his meta was outdated (Middle)

For example, I never once saw a fortress being used back when I played AOC Middle.. Nowadays it is simply a MUST building in cavs vs sword, otherwise you ARE dead. No question. And if the cavs player switched to a mixture of cavs and persians, then mass vikings are needed for defence, until you have enough economy to go hero, and then add the swords. It's not the easiest of things to explain. You may think "what on earth is he talking about" or "wow that sounds so nooby" but please take my word for it.. Remember, I started out on aoc, and I've played in that time (a little later) and I play quite a lot now. The simple solution would be for you and others to start playing again, but of course, that's down to personal choice.

I also agree with Arntzen that old experts returning, IF they decided to stick around for a while, adapt to the new meta, tactics etc. Then yeah, there's a possibility that some of them would be come good again, but dominate? Nah. If I'm honest, there isn't really a single middle player these days who I would say "Dominates" it's very competitive Imo.
For me, the standard in middle is the highest I have seen it in my time playing EE.

Tsubasa, Locodoco, Arntzen, Armada, Nafrayu, Myself, Samuel..

Even the so called "lesser" players are getting stronger and stronger... Basilik, Ade, Pope, Fisch, Aymen, Eminem, Tano, Panda..

I wouldn't say I was the best in 2006 no, but what I can tell you is even now, I feel like I am probably the strongest I have been (on a personal level) in Middle SH... And I haven't won a tournament in this era.. I've reached 3 finals, and I've lost all 3, quite badly if I'm honest. I still feel like I still have things I can learn, and improve on.

But back in probably 07-08, I was considered as one of the best Middle players on AoC, along side Calv and even yourself at the time. I was definitely up there with the best.

Feel free to watch the current streams on youtube of some tournament games, whether that be Middle, Grens, or Liga. It is good to watch.

Infact, I'll upload the final between Locodoco and Tsubasa, it was a brilliant final, really highlighted how strong Middle is now. I'll post the link here when it's complete

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

Lad, I used to build fortresses all the time in 1v1s cav vs swords, it's just not always the best tactic, just because you never seen certain tactics, doesn't mean they weren't used.

A scenario where no fortress is better would be in a tight base full of resources, houses, towers and hospital, group running your cits around while towers cut down the swords can be better than letting him smash your base to pieces, it all depends on circumstances but no, you've not mentioned anything new.

Your time and experience with the top tier players in 2006 is massively limited. You can't comment on tactics used if you're already wrong on the first example you gave.

You were far from the best in 2006. By 2007 I was semi active and 2008 I was more interested in playing scenarios and trolling on teamspeak.

You wrote a lot but not much is relevant or poignant to what I'm saying, so I don't really have much else to say.

Your hypothesis about advancement and improvement based on real life sports is completely out of whack though and I've explained why, you've yet to address it.

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