Is this Mod DM civ good?

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Arntzen
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Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Arntzen »

So, I've been playing a little Mod DM, and this is the civ I've had most success with. I do however, want to hear from you guys what isn't really necessary and/or say what this civ really needs.

Aircraft - Fighters
• 30% Build Time Decrease
Citizens & Fishing Boats
• 20% Speed
Civ - Bldgs, Walls & Towers
• 20% Attack
• 30% Build Time Decrease
• 20% Range
Field Cannon & Anti-Tank Guns
• 30% Build time Decrease
• 25% Hit Points
Infantry - Ranged
• 30% Build Time Decrease
• 20% Range
Siege Weapons & Mobile AA
• 20% Area Damage
• 25% Attack
• 30% Build Time Decrease
• 20% Cost Reduction
• 20% Range
• 25% Rate of Fire
Tanks
• 25% Hit Points



It's a wing civ, that I also use in 1v1. Basically what I'm going for here is a strong all round civilization that makes me extremely hard to kill.

I start out three barracks two siege factories, then keep spamming them until I have about 12/8. Second and third citizens from captiol usually gets AA's. I eventually get two tank factories, and then start hospital/aa/tower expanding. I usually don't get wonders until very late game cause I spend the resources so quick.

Specific questions:
1:AT HP+Tank HP vs AT Range+Tank BTD?
2:Siege RoF > HP?
3:Should I get Isthar with this civ?
4:Should I upgrade every unit to 10? I usually only do like HP on tanks and range on marines/snipers.
5:Anything I need to fix in that briefly explained build order?
A Good Place to Start: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3884
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Re: Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Ghost »

For a WING civ you should sacrifice either ROF or AD on siege and give yourself more points to work with, IMO. I also prefer this in 1v1 but it's up to you. When I started off I used both bonuses but quickly moved one off when I realized it wasn't worth the points. I use ROF. I think Nemo uses AD or both.

For a TINY MAP 1v1 you should take out Building Attack/Range and focus on rushing units and countering their units with different ones. Air is too slow to warrant the bonuses for AA and your siege bonuses will give you powerful mobile AA if your opponent does make it. They will likely be spamming units into your towers regardless so tower range isn't that important.

In general, Siege ROF > HP. Proof? Use HP and see how worthless it is. Ishtar is always important, especially when expanding. I would consider trying to get it faster because if you don't, all the res you spent expanding buildings is going to get crushed by some easily microed arty. Also, bombers will dominate you. I also upgrade everything to 10 but that's just me. I figure the amount spent on one time upgrades is better than the extra couple units I would get instead.

My play style dictates AT range and attack for microing and I use hero morale for HP, but that's for actual AT cannons. Do what fits you better. If you're making bazookas, use HP. I never stressed tanks much but I do like BTD for late game when I rally spam M1s into peoples ecos from across the map.
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Re: Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Captain Nemo »

Hmm IMO the BTD on sieges is a total waste. They already come out pretty fast. tank HP is absolutely preferred I think.

It's alot different from my own civs but it looks alot like what most others would use. Mind that a guy with alot of leopard tanks will be hard for u to kill without attack or range on the AT's. But well this civ should do pretty well for rushing.
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Re: Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Omega »

You're trying to do too much with a single civ. Wing civs and 1v1 civs are considerably different. Building upgrades, other than BTD, are imperative for wing play, but they're mostly worthless for typical 1v1 play. Make a separate wing and 1v1 civ.

On siege, HP is worthless. Speed is better than HP, and speed is basically worthless. Range and attack are gold. RoF is damn good. BTD can be damn good depending on your play style. Area damage is "meh". If area damage helps you significantly versus an opponent, you are already winning, or if you're not already winning, you should focus on sucking less. Area damage isn't really bad, in fact it's pretty good in some cases, it's just that the primary use of it is to beat people you're going to beat anyway slightly faster.

Are you making primarily bazookas, or anti-tank guns? Hit points is win on bazookas, and range is worthless. HP is damn good on AT too, but they're already beastly powerful if you've got full morale, HP upgraded to the max, and a couple hospitals in the area. Ideally, for AT guns, HP and range = super win, but you'll probably have to choose in most cases, and if you're choosing and don't care about bazookas, you should go with range.

You should get Isthar fairly early on wing. You can't legitimately expand and hold that expansion without one, unless of course your opponent is horribly bad. Of course, you should never plan anything around your opponent being horribly bad, because in the case it's true, you win, and in the case it's not true, your plans often reduce your chances at winning. The odds of you needing Isthar in 1v1, though? Low, unless it's like a medium map 1v1.

On tanks, it depends on how you plan to use them. Personally, I'm pretty partial to speed in tanks on civ (upgrade: 1 speed 2x hp and 2x attack or 2x range depending on other factors). 16+5 speed tanks are fantastic for eco-raiding your opponent, and they're pretty good for hard pushes in the case your opponent's army mix is off and they're far too back-loaded (i.e. too much arty compared to other units). Speed tanks are also damn good at brute-force wonder killing, as well.

You should pretty much always upgrade any unit you're using to 10. It's pretty easy to do basic calculations and find a point where upgrades are equivalent to or better than additional units. There's also 'hidden' benefits to stronger units. The only unit I could see you possibly not upgrading to 10 until mid or late game is snipers, but that shouldn't even be a hard and fast rule because there are cases where upgrading them further than 2x range early on is quite beneficial. Upgrading should be your default. The minor amount of extra resources from not upgrading will have very little impact on the game.
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Re: Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Captain Nemo »

eh couple of points:

2x attack on sniper upgraded from non attack upgrade in civ will allow snipers to shoot bazookas in a single shot even if they're with fully HP. Depending on your opponent thats definitely the first upgrade u should add if facing a zookrush. Attack before range, too. If not, well snipers would be mostly for the line of sight and range will do fine. It's basically not worth your thoughts in a game so whenever u get your first sniper out, 2x attack and 2x range and u're good all games.

Area damage on siege may not be Omega's favorites but he's from a different period in mod dm ;) It's IMO probably the best upgrade in the entire civ apart from siege range. It will allow you to hit moving units slightly better as well as owning bigger armies more. It's simply a must-have and it's in all my ground civs. With few sieges; attack might have a slight advantage over AD, but when u have alot of sieges AD is definitely better and well it's DM so u have alot of siege fast.

- On a sidenote I don't think u're trying to do too much with this civ it's simply just a wing civ and not a 1v1 civ ;) A combo of fighters with ground is the best for 1v1, even on a tiny map I think.

Question: Have you thought of using any CR?
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Re: Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Arntzen »

Wow lots of great replies here! Thanks a lot.

I also like that you three disagree on stuff too, which I'll take as: OK so I'll try every tip and see what suits me best.

Summary of what you all agreed on: Always upgrade and this is basically a wing civ, not a 1v1 civ. Get isthar and ROF > HP on Siege.

When it comes to Siege ROF vs HP I basically questioned that because in Siege fights I do on P2N Island game HP > ROF. I looked over all civs here as well as Nemos civs and you had all taken ROF over HP (honestly I don't remember seing a civ from one of you guys with Siege HP). But I asked to clear this up.

I also forgot that this civ can basically just trade Fighter BTD+AT HP for AT Range. Reason I put that in there was playing a couple of games with Blackswarm and seing him using HP+BTD in one of his civilizations. I generally only use AT's in my play unless my civ has HP+SPD for Bazooka (so basically only in zook rush civs).

The Tank HP idea I got from Nemo in Mod SH (something I'm pretty sure he got from Mod DM).
Captain Nemo wrote:It's alot different from my own civs but it looks alot like what most others would use. Mind that a guy with alot of leopard tanks will be hard for u to kill without attack or range on the AT's. But well this civ should do pretty well for rushing.
Captain Nemo wrote:Question: Have you thought of using any CR?
Yeah this is true. I've maybe not been patience enough, but while trying out your civilizations I found them pretty difficult for me to start out with. You seem to put CR over BTD on anything (unless the civ as the word "rush" in it ^^), and since I'm not as confident/fast as you I find I need BTD bonus on most things to keep up.
Again, my goal of this civ is to do really solid play from the get-go, something BTD has helped me do.

I got to say I'm pretty convinced on the AD upgrade when it comes to Artillery. I even use it in many SH civs when I can afford it. I will however try without it too, to find out if it's really worth it.


Right now the civ is looking like this:

Citizens & Fishing Boats
• 20% Speed
Civ - Bldgs, Walls & Towers
• 20% Attack
• 30% Build Time Decrease
• 20% Range
Field Cannon & Anti-Tank Guns
• 30% Build time Decrease
• 20% Range
Infantry - Ranged
• 30% Build Time Decrease
• 20% Range
Siege Weapons & Mobile AA
• 20% Area Damage
• 25% Attack
• 30% Build Time Decrease
• 20% Cost Reduction
• 20% Range
• 25% Rate of Fire
Tanks
• 25% Hit Points

But after this:
Captain Nemo wrote:Hmm IMO the BTD on sieges is a total waste.
I'm very curious to what I can trade that in for? It leaves me with 11 points so AT HP is 1 point too expensive.
A Good Place to Start: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3884
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Re: Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Ghost »

If you take out both Siege AD and BTD you can get AT HP and Tank CR, I'd probably take this one since cheap tanks can be beastly, or AT CR and a Tank bonus (Attack, Speed, or BTD) :)

If you're dead set on leaving in AD and scraping BTD, I'd take out AT BTD and swap with HP or Attack, then take the 10 points to tanks and/or others.

Or if you take out just AD then you can get the AT HP and have 7 left for Aircraft, etc, or get 8 by swapping Tank HP with BTD.

Play around with them all.
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Re: Is this Mod DM civ good?

Post by Captain Nemo »

u could go with AT attack/hp or add pop cap which is really powerful in 3v3 and 4v4 wing civs. Obviously this is useless on GR though.
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