Oldschool vs Newschool

[Late_]

Its the lack of competition that will stop you from improving beyond a certain point. Some of your todays "experts" would have become one back then but with all the good people gone, how should they know what was possible? In terms of ee im a relic, i was there when the beta went live, in all my years playing i stayed with liga. If you didnt play against elfanor, hilbi, qball, insane and everyone i'm too lazy to list, how should you know that you are actually really good? The problem is the missing replay feature of the game. So many builds are lost, so many epic moves cant be rewatched, so many of our ideas and strategys gone missing.
A few years ago, when i came back to play some liga games, there were like 10 people playing those settings. Most of them ignorant and cocky as hell. They thought they are the best cos they win basicly every liga game, none was better, ever. You cant improve with that mentality and noone to show you your place. THats why players back then were better then players now. Even the old ones would only get worse with the lack of practice and competition.

[Arntzen]

It's an really interesting post Late_ but what if we turn it around from this:

If you didnt play against elfanor, hilbi, qball, insane and everyone i'm too lazy to list, how should you know that you are actually really good?

to this:

If you didnt play against krass/goldeneye/samuel/splinter and everyone i'm too lazy to list, how should you know that you were actually really good back then?

I'm not gonna say that "todays experts" know every build done back then, but I do know that if you try something like England CA rush in Middle or France forward base in Modern they will certanly know how to handle that with the most common civs.
Also its easy to find out that simple timings haven't changed (at least to the worse). Like the experts of today know how to get out a 4.10 PC in Dark age if they have to.
If you don't believe me, try challenging a guy like Samuel to discuss strategies and builds in Liga and I'd be surprised if you think he's "ignorant".

When it comes to competition, it sure helps to have 10 000 online 24/7 with ladders, tournaments and replay packages available for all. Tho it doesn't nessasarily mean a player can't get beyond a certain point. Having a couple of training partners. If they achieve flow it can take them far beyond anyone else. I mean, look at Bobby Fischer who practically trained himself. At one point he couldn't find anyone to challenge him in US, so he started playing himself (Chess).

I also wonder what you think of Captain Nemo's post in this thread (the first one he made).

OH and btw, did you find that 1on1 liga guide by Insane?

[Late_]

While your arguments certainly hold some truths, your comparison between chess and ee is flawed. You can hardly hone your micro skills against yourself. No micro-game, might it be ingame or some mini-game in a browser, can give you the same training as the real deal. Hand-eye coordination cannot be trained by thinking about it.
You are right, the players you listed might be really good, since i've only met krass (who was the one whose attitude i was speaking about, and even he could have had a bad day), i cant speak for everyone. For real i hope not everyone is a self righteous dick nowadays just cos he wins some liga games.
I expect no less of todays experts than knowing the game and how to react in certain situations. That however, even it is a big part in ee, is the basis of the game. Here you can compare it to sc2. Just cos you know every timing and can you know every build just by looking and the drones you are in not automaticly a pro. In the end its the micro that decides games and, here you have to belive me, i know people like elf and insane are in a category with sc-pros here. If your listed players are on such a lvl they should swap games asap and make some money out of it.

yes i know where insas builds are written down, i cant excess the forums anymore though. Sadly the admin took them down without a word.

Edit: just wanted to add that its not meant as offensive as it might seem. Recent players sure could improve or even get better than the ones i named but not under conditions like this (ie. no competitiv scene whatsoever).

[lightnessking.]

@Late. KrasS is in grandmaster league of sc2.

[Samuel]

Late, I don't think you've played that much against recent players (let's say Liga players from 2006 foward) to have a valid judgement, you haven't seen today's players enough to actually make an objective comparison.

This is why you'll realize that most people don't even compare themselves to the players who played before 2006, they just make comparisons between themselves and another player from the same era (2006 and the years after that), simply because it would be impossible to make a comparison with players who played before.

I think that if you actually took your time to play with some of nowadays' players, you'd be up for a surprise. I don't think you'd ever change your mind: if Elfanor from back then played today under a smurf nickname and you got the chance to observe him, thinking he's a newschool player, you would be able to come up with something as funny as "Elfanor would have smashed him". That's what I think.

[Captain Nemo]

Who's Late? Is it SiA_User guy?

[Omega]

Who's Late? Is it SiA_User guy?

Your mom.

(I couldn't resist. Sorry.)

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

LoL omega haha

yea think he is sia_user not sure

kazter you say this:
If you didnt play against krass/goldeneye/samuel/splinter and everyone i'm too lazy to list, how should you know that you were actually really good back then?

But when you have someone like ras who played back then even say himself that if he played back then again he wouldnt be as good as some of the others then it makes you think more of someone of ras`s level in liga to say that he wouldnt be as good as other liga players then you cant take much more from that.

[Late_]

As i said, its not meant as offensive as it might seem. First, i never named myself sia_user, whoever that might be, you have to look for someone else. I once played for SiA, yes, with hilbi and the others, thats just long past. What i'm saying is, that people just cant be as good because there is no real competition, what im not saying is people are bad players in general. They might become as good or even better, but not under conditions like this.

No, i could tell you when elf is playing, he had quite some uniqe playstyle. Besides, i havent met anyone with a playerspeed over 3000 lately. Im no elf fan btw, i'm quite sure that insane was the better 1on1 player later on.

@lightnessking: under which name is he playing in gm?

@samuel: i hope im not that self righteous and i usually dont hate to be proven wrong.

[lightnessking.]

As i said, its not meant as offensive as it might seem. First, i never named myself sia_user, whoever that might be, you have to look for someone else. I once played for SiA, yes, with hilbi and the others, thats just long past. What i'm saying is, that people just cant be as good because there is no real competition, what im not saying is people are bad players in general. They might become as good or even better, but not under conditions like this.

No, i could tell you when elf is playing, he had quite some uniqe playstyle. Besides, i havent met anyone with a playerspeed over 3000 lately. Im no elf fan btw, i'm quite sure that insane was the better 1on1 player later on.

@lightnessking: under which name is he playing in gm?

@samuel: i hope im not that self righteous and i usually dont hate to be proven wrong.

Player speed 3000 doesn't mean anything imo. Look at samuel and kazter.
Just like in starcraft APM doesn't matter, EAPM DOES however. But EAPM isn't in Empire Earth.

Anyways, I'm not quite sure what krass's exact name is, but it contains KrasS. (Not sure if he's still in GML anymore, but he used to be for a long time. I might check it when I get back home.)

[BigRon]

Krass official facebook fan page:

https://www.facebook.com/SC2KrasS

Interviews with Krass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX6NmBKE4DQ

Starcraft 2 encyclopedia of Krass:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KrasS



np

[Arntzen]

While your arguments certainly hold some truths, your comparison between chess and ee is flawed.

I did not compare EE to Chess, I just used Bobby Fischer as an example of someone achieving greatness without any competition at all.

I expect no less of todays experts than knowing the game and how to react in certain situations. That however, even it is a big part in ee, is the basis of the game. Here you can compare it to sc2. Just cos you know every timing and can you know every build just by looking and the drones you are in not automaticly a pro. In the end its the micro that decides games and, here you have to belive me, i know people like elf and insane are in a category with sc-pros here.

Don't think I really agree on this. I remember Day9 having a long in-depth analysis about a Terran (forget who it was) who had a 75% winrate against Protoss, and when going through the analysis the concusion was simple: The terran had mediocre APM (for a GM EU-player), mediocre micro, and did nothing fancy or "OMGKOREAN-GODLIKE", but almost every game at some point he just A-Moved (like CTRL-move in EE) and won. What made him an exceptional player was the fact that he knew exactly the army composition he needed to win when scouting the enemy TOSS.
Sure, if you're an aggressive "in-your-face"-type player always attacking with great micro, then that's how you win games. This doesn't mean it's how it works for everyone. The more reaction-type strategist might not even need to give more than 5% of his focus to micro.

But when you have someone like ras who played back then even say himself that if he played back then again he wouldnt be as good as some of the others then it makes you think more of someone of ras`s level in liga to say that he wouldnt be as good as other liga players then you cant take much more from that.

I talked to him a while back about this. What I got from that conversation is that he thought BE was the best back then, and that he think Krass would be the only one able to compete with him. Even maybe beat BE. Also I might add, that he didn't think anyone of nowadays (last 4-5 years) experts who is "top 2-10" would be on the top 50 list all time. I might remember this wrong, or he might have changed his mind.

Player speed 3000 doesn't mean anything imo. Look at samuel and kazter.

Wrong, playerspeed is everything.

[lightnessking.]

Obvious sarcasm is obvious kazter .

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

yea so only one who would be able to be top level back then would be krass others wouldnt make top 50 lol so that makes a big difference from 2006+ liga players to the old liga players

[Late_]

While your arguments certainly hold some truths, your comparison between chess and ee is flawed.

I did not compare EE to Chess, I just used Bobby Fischer as an example of someone achieving greatness without any competition at all.

Wrong, you used bobby fisher as an example for someone who played a game against himself, and because he was so exceptional talented he improved. Im saying you can do that in a game like chess or study math by yourself, great indead, however you dont get better when you need eye-hand coordination and play a game you cant play against yourself, not even the slightest chance. Thats like playing soccer against yourself. Anyways there are many more autisic person you could come up and call an example of achiving greatness by oneself... lonely indeed.

I expect no less of todays experts than knowing the game and how to react in certain situations. That however, even it is a big part in ee, is the basis of the game. Here you can compare it to sc2. Just cos you know every timing and can you know every build just by looking and the drones you are in not automaticly a pro. In the end its the micro that decides games and, here you have to belive me, i know people like elf and insane are in a category with sc-pros here.

Don't think I really agree on this. I remember Day9 having a long in-depth analysis about a Terran (forget who it was) who had a 75% winrate against Protoss, and when going through the analysis the concusion was simple: The terran had mediocre APM (for a GM EU-player), mediocre micro, and did nothing fancy or "OMGKOREAN-GODLIKE", but almost every game at some point he just A-Moved (like CTRL-move in EE) and won. What made him an exceptional player was the fact that he knew exactly the army composition he needed to win when scouting the enemy TOSS.
Sure, if you're an aggressive "in-your-face"-type player always attacking with great micro, then that's how you win games. This doesn't mean it's how it works for everyone. The more reaction-type strategist might not even need to give more than 5% of his focus to micro.

Tell that to a zerg player. Taking the balance of a multi-race game in certain mu as an example is useless again. You are comparing apples and oranges once more.. There is a reason why high-apm koreans dominate every szene, exceptions prove the rule.

But when you have someone like ras who played back then even say himself that if he played back then again he wouldnt be as good as some of the others then it makes you think more of someone of ras`s level in liga to say that he wouldnt be as good as other liga players then you cant take much more from that.

I talked to him a while back about this. What I got from that conversation is that he thought BE was the best back then, and that he think Krass would be the only one able to compete with him. Even maybe beat BE. Also I might add, that he didn't think anyone of nowadays (last 4-5 years) experts who is "top 2-10" would be on the top 50 list all time. I might remember this wrong, or he might have changed his mind.

There would prolly be more then just krass on an alltime-top50 from recent times, they just cant get there cos noone is left playing or giving you any way of a challenge. Which is my point. As long as there is no challenge or competition, not to speak of a pro-scene, how should they improve further? And yes, there were certain people being payed in ee back then.

Player speed 3000 doesn't mean anything imo. Look at samuel and kazter.

Wrong, playerspeed is everything.

3k defenetly is not a must have, it all comes down how you play the game. Do you select your raxes via shortcuts or do you select em by ctrl + x. However 1,2k was basicly the average apm in overall "expert" games, as you call em.