Discussion

[Omega]

Second hand, of course.

For an extra 15 USD, your socks will come shipped with a hole in the left sock that is guaranteed* to increase how lucky it is.

[herik]

You bought me at the 2nd hand part

[Samuel]

The graphs are nowhere near logic. There are 2 ways:
1) You try an scientific approach, then you'd actually need data and proofs
2) You don't.
And as for the graphs: If so I'd guess it would be more of a root than an exponential function, but that is just a wild guess as the behaviour of exponential functions doesn't really make sense in that case.

Kazter added those graphics as well as explaining his point on player speed. Whilst the graphics may not necessarily be that connected with what he said on player speed .... he still talked thoroughly about so many things regarding player speed that are independent from the graphics.
Want to talk about that Pelie? I think it would be much more constructive than focusing so much on those graphics.

Those graphics don't scientifically prove anything? But who even claimed that? Nobody did
We already know that they don't prove anything, and that's the reason why it would be much smarter to talk about his other points about PS

Pelie, since you have come to this topic you haven't really contributed, you just attempted to criticize other people's words and didn't really add anything to the conversation. This is quite funny, because whilst you are calling other people's posts senseless, you are the one who's speaking most senselessly since you still haven't contributed in any useful way

Can't take the truth?
I thought measuring PS in µm/kg would be a good idea. And a sinus would look pretty neat on your graphs.
But maybe you can explain how you got such reasonable seeming data about playerspeed

Again, why do you focus so much on the graphs, and completely overlook everything else
His points are independent from the graphs, and they come from something more important: personal experience.

That is why he's got such reasonable data about playerspeed. Because the most important data he's given us is the one that comes from his experience.
Since, as you said, graphs aren't really important and hence cannot be classified as data, I propose you to ignore them and finally start talking about the other points. After all, why talking about something unimportant, like those graphs, Pelie?
Since I'm sure you'll agree with me that those graphs don't really prove anything, Pelie, I am finally expecting some good post concerning your ideas on player speed, perhaps commenting on Kazter's points, as you seem to be so overly fond of commenting on his words

Having low PS is to me an indicator that the player is "less skilled" at doing multiple things at ones. Multitasking efficiently in high speed comes with practice. I've learned this time and time again, that players with lower PS than me get generally less things done, and people with higher get generally more things done.

That's absolutely true, at least regarding Ligasetting.
I challenge any of you to play a Liga 1v1 Renaissance start, starting with 2 settlement, starting with stable and imps, to go ahead mixing inf, and of course adding a farm at hunt, making a TC and so forth.
The interesting part of this challenge is: as you are doing it you need to move your dog in relatively little squares, somewhere else on the map.

Basically, as you lure hippoes, make buildings and do everything else (smoothly), you keep moving your dog, without using shift, on little squares (who's side will be shorter than the distance from capitol to forage). How many of you would be able to do that, by having the dog always running (without stopping the run), and with a start that's just as smooth as the one you would have had had you not kept on moving the dog? Just wondering

As for spamming "warming you up", it's just a placebo effect. It's not to say that placebo effects aren't real, because they are, but it's not that spamming is doing it. You're tricking yourself into doing it, by thinking that spamming is somehow effective. You could get the exact same effect if you thought that wearing a certain "lucky" pair of socks was equally effective as spamming. You could probably get an even bigger effect if you had a giant sugar pill that was so big it was hard to swallow, and did that before your games. You could get an even bigger effect if you injected yourself with (sterile) isotonic saline solution before every game, and thought that would somehow be effective, even though it wasn't actually doing shit. Heck, even if you give someone a placebo and tell them it's a placebo, there's *STILL* an effect. It's actually pretty cool, and pretty interesting.

That's actually different, all of your examples aren't correct.

Because as you are spamming in the early game, you are already priming your brain to enter a different state of mind, basically you are allowing it to "get used to it". I'll quote Kazter to make it easier for me:

"The PS needed explodes in games, sometimes in a period we would think was more "relaxed". Lets say you suddenly get attacked from two places while you were attacking your opponent. Here you immediately needs a big boost in your PS"

"It's all just a smooth transition. Suddenly I go from a 30% accurate gameplay to a 80% without feeling much difference. This is why spamming is good for you."

Through spamming at the beginning, you are already beginning to access that "mental state" that you will be needing later on, sometimes in unexpected moments of the game. That's the difference between spamming and wearing socks as a placebo effect.
Because when I say "spamming", I just don't mean randomly pressing keys on a keyboard, I would understand your logic if it was just about pressing keys on the keyboard. Whilst part of spamming revolves around pressing keys (and I believe this can be good too, the mere physical act of pressing keys will sort of "wake up" your hand in a physical sense, making it more reactive through the later stages), you are specifically trying to play as quick as you possibly can, allowing your brain to "get used to it".

That's the reason why it's more than just placebo effect. Then, if you tell me that it's ALSO placebo effect, that's even better
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As a conclusion to this post, I just wanted to highlight the fact that, in the end, it's the low playerspeed players that mostly bring up the playerspeed talk. I never talk about my playerspeed, unless someone asked me a question. I hardly ever find players with high playerspeed talking about PS.

[herik]

Why wouldn't we be allowed to use shift, shift on empire earth is one of the most useful hotkeys for management of the base/eco.

[Samuel]

Why wouldn't we be allowed to use shift, shift on empire earth is one of the most useful hotkeys for management of the base/eco.

Because that is just a multitasking test, to see how efficient your multitasking is
Someone with a better multitasking will do it better than someone with a worse one.

If you can shift the movement squares of your dog, then it will be much easier ... you just make a few shift clicks to make sure your dog moves correctly through the square, and then manage your base.
If you don't use shift, you have to back to the dog every single time you want it to change its direction.
Basically you move it somewhere, quickly send cit to hippo, go back to dog and change its direction, attack hippo and go back, change direction of the dog and so forth.

In a real game you would use shift (thought you wouldn't be using the dog that way), but this is just a multitasking test

[Captain Nemo]

Having low PS is to me an indicator that the player is "less skilled" at doing multiple things at ones. Multitasking efficiently in high speed comes with practice. I've learned this time and time again, that players with lower PS than me get generally less things done, and people with higher get generally more things done.
The players I play with today generally has the same PS every game. If it's a 10f11 long game or a 60f11 long game. I think that if players "upped their speed when it's needed" their PS would grow over time, since there would be more speed needed. Maybe you can answer this, cause I might be wrong.

Anyway having a stable PS, aka spamming in start of the game, has helped my gameplay a lot.

I can tell you from experience there are plenty of players currently on GR who average 1200-1600 PS, and I slap them around with my 700 every single game. To me it's no indicator of anything as long as it's not desperately low as you'd hit the speed less than what has to be done like omega spoke about.

About upping your player speed, now I often don't look that much at other player's PS Ill admit so lets take myself as an example although Im not an über expert. My speed in liga will start out at around 600, and depending on what type of game I play I've hit speeds of up to 1400 for a longer game. To up your speed from the initial 600 to 1400, the effective PS I use for later game is ALOT higher than the initial 600. Not able to up the speed? I doubt it.

Sam thats a great test for a guy who does this strat alot and knows it like his back pocket. Lets see get you out of your comfort zone and lets see you control a very wide front line in mod dm... I doubt you'd be as succesful as with the dog square. Bear in mind you'd have to control your economy at the same time, and expand your base. Or perhaps 3 army groups in indy dm? Think u'd do better there, but still.
Point is just because many of us can't do your dog test does not mean we're worse at multitasking, just like it doesn't mean Im better at multitasking because I can control a wide frontline in mod dm. It just means I play the set better (than most). Like it means u can play your set better.

Im not saying effective speed isn't important, because it is. But it's not to be confused with EE's PS.

As for the hotkey spam Im glad it works for you guys, but I don't need to prepare my brain or warm up my fingers pushing hcccc whenever I have a quiet moment in the game. It cirtainly doesn't make your hand more reactive speaking from a medical scientific view. And perhaps it's just me, but pushing hcccc isn't exactly "brain warm up" to me it's just moving my fingers, which is almost as elementary to my brain as breathing... Now when the attack comes and you need to up your speed it takes a whole lot more brain to move the hcccc into effective speed as you need to make decisions, make smart moves etc. The brain will have to work harder here regardless of how much you try to keep it in the same workload state.

It's not that I have a problem with the spamming, as I always say: whatever works or you. But your argumentation for the spamming just forces a little smile on my face because you're not telling how it works for you (or are you???), you're telling how it works in general, and thats where I disagree. Because like Omega I find it to be pure placebo effect.

[Samuel]

Nemo, that task is obviously aimed at people who have got at least a bit of experience in liga and can at least have a decent/proper liga game, I'm not obviously talking about people who don't play the set.
What I'm talking about is that most likely Pope of Dope would be one of the players who'd find the most difficulties doing this test, whereas Kazter would do it much better, and overall I'm pretty sure that, out of the liga players that EE has seen, the ones with higher PS would be more comfortable doing it.

If we take Krass and Goldi, Krass (3.5k ps) would definitely do it better, and I can see Goldeneye having problems with it.
Ras (2k ps) and BONES, I see ras doing it better.
Me and Splinter, I would do it better.
Kazter and Dave (700 ps), Kazter would do it better.

Since I assume it's quite obvious to everybody that the players I've mentioned above are all experienced liga players, I just wanted to point out that in such a case, USUALLY the one with a higher PS will eventually turn out to have a better multitasking.

Obviously, Nemo, I don't want to make it a rule, and I'm perfectly aware that there might be people with a really good multitasking that don't necessarily have a high PS, but as a rule of thumb, USUALLY (but not always) a high PS is an indicator of a good multitasking.
And if we were to take 10 good players with a high PS, and 10 good players with a low PS, it's much more likely that the first group of 10 people will present, on average, better multitasking skills (not talking about specific cases, cause there still might be someone with low ps and good multitasking, just saying on average).

Such tests, you are right, can be done only when the player is already comfortable with the set. I wouldn't be able to do that much in Mod DM, and that's because I'm not comfortable with the set ... just like I wouldn't ask someone who's not comfortable with ligasetting to do the dog test I've talked about.

And you are talking about you beating those players on GR, well to me that just means that you are better than them. Didn't claim higher PS means better player.
I'm just saying that, ON AVERAGE, if we look into the most known EE players, the ones with a higher PS will be, AVERAGELLY (again, there might be some specific cases that are different), better at multitasking.

If you want to know another example .... out of the players I've seen that have moved from EE to sc2 .... the one who would present better multitasking and APM on sc2 were always the ones who would have a higher PS on EE. Goldeneye, Splinter and Wolvy (all of whom devoted time into trying to learn the game) had a ridiculously low APM on sc2 (40 effective APM), though Myst (2k + PS on EE), Krass and myself could reach 100 effective APM per minute, and KrasS currently has 150+ (if you don't want to take Krass as an example, for obvious reasons, take me and Myst as an example then).
I know sc2 is a different game ... but it requires even more multitasking than EE does, and to me it's no surprise that the players with a lower PS found it more difficult to keep track of all the things that were going on a sc2 game, and also having a lower effective APM.


P.S.
"Whatever works for you": I completely agree with this .... I really don't know why some people are really that bothered (not talking about you Nemo, and I'm saying it for real, not being sarcastic ) by other people's high PS/apm .... just play the way you like and enjoy the game

[Captain Nemo]

Didn't claim higher PS means better player.

no kazter did (implication of high skill), I was replying to him. It wasn't directed at u untill I wrote samuel

Anyway I'd first like to replace the word multitasking with something else cause it just isn't multitasking. You're doing one thing: playing a computer game. So Ill refer to it as the technical aspect of EE from now on, cause it's getting on my nerves lol.

If we take Krass and Goldi, Krass (3.5k ps) would definitely do it better, and I can see Goldeneye having problems with it.
Ras (2k ps) and BONES, I see ras doing it better.
Me and Splinter, I would do it better.
Kazter and Dave (700 ps), Kazter would do it better.

1) This is merely speculation.
2) You're obviusly pairing them to benefit your point. Why not setup goldi with his 700 ps to some of the others. Or take some entirely different examples.
My point: Usually the one who is best on the technical level will also usually be best at least in 1v1. The PS wont matter much in such a case.

BTW Krass used to have an extremely low PS and was still one of the absolute bests back then (tho Ill admit he improved over the last years.)

What I'm talking about is that most likely Pope of Dope would be one of the players who'd find the most difficulties doing this test, whereas Kazter would do it much better, and overall I'm pretty sure that, out of the liga players that EE has seen, the ones with higher PS would be more comfortable doing it.

Meh I actually doubt pope would have that much trouble with it (compared to others). Maybe kazter do it better, Im sure he has trained it with u already. I happened to obs pope do a 1v1 with using hardly one single hotkey (just to make a point) going cav in copper against u, and he individually moved 4 horses around (or more) making hardly a single micro mistake, against your spears and won. This is not to make a cheap shot pointing fingers that u lost btw, it's simply to point out pope is pretty good on the technical level even when only using 300 PS as he did that game. And he can actually step it up over 700 lol.

just like I wouldn't ask someone who's not comfortable with ligasetting to do the dog test I've talked about.

You did invite anyone to do it tho

If you want to know another example .... out of the players I've seen that have moved from EE to sc2 .... the one who would present better multitasking and APM on sc2 were always the ones who would have a higher PS on EE. Goldeneye, Splinter and Wolvy (all of whom devoted time into trying to learn the game) had a ridiculously low APM on sc2 (40 effective APM), though Myst (2k + PS on EE), Krass and myself could reach 100 effective APM per minute, and KrasS currently has 150+ (if you don't want to take Krass as an example, for obvious reasons, take me and Myst as an example then).
I know sc2 is a different game ... but it requires even more multitasking than EE does, and to me it's no surprise that the players with a lower PS found it more difficult to keep track of all the things that were going on a sc2 game, and also having a lower effective APM.

So... higher EE ps equals higher sc2 ps/apm. Well hallelujah

[Arntzen]

I realize I should probably have made this clear, but when I'm spamming it's not "H+C*100" or random clicks that has no use at all. What I do early game is make up the force-feed groups I need and start, then I do "useless" rounds of force-feeding, then I might "HCCCCC" and then force feed again. So "HCCCC" +"Press 2 and force feed"+"Press 3 and force feed"+"Press 4 and force feed" and then maybe "HCCCC" again just to end the force feed round. Doing this helps me get used to force feeding fast and the "HCCC" or whatever random act I do first and after makes the illusion of me doing something, then force feed round and back to doing something. It can be control dog-force feed round, HCCC, force feed round and control dog. Obviously those unnecessary force feed rounds doesn't make me more efficient in the early stages, but (I believe) it helps later on.

Not only this, but I keep checking my workers/capitol/barrack to get use to the timings (since they vary so much in liga). This is called "tapping" in SC2 since you just tap on 12345 to see their timings, and is something I also consider spamming.

I apologize if this wasn't clear from the start, I guess it was just (for some reason) obvious to me that I wasn't pressing "H+C*100" and so on.

Alright, so placebo effect. For argument sake let's say that the effect spamming gives is 100% placebo effect. Now I'll be clear here, this can not be compared to any kind of placebo you would get from a homemade sugar-pill or some kind of lucky sock anyone would be willing to sell. Placebo is stronger the more the person who's being handled the "pill" or "sock" actually believes it. Now, for a pill to be very believable it should come from a proper doctor, it should hopefully have some kind of prescription so it's not an easy pill to come by and the user should be told that he/her is given a bigger dose than normal. This would be a classic example of something that has high chance of great placebo effect.

Just the fact that professional gamers spam just for the reasons me and Samuel have explained will give us a really good reason to believe that spamming works -> bigger placebo.

In football we have a term called "staying on your toes". Basically if you stand normal you need to get on your toes, then run. So standing on your toes makes the running part quicker. This is something I relate to when it comes to all the spamming I do. Since I'm already very active, it feels like I'm "on my toes" and ready for most. I also believe the spamming makes me more focused in games.

Reasons I highly doubt the effect is 100% placebo is:
Practicing high speed force feed rounds.
Checking/getting used to timings.


Reasons I think spamming has a positive effect on your gameplay:
Practicing high speed force feed rounds makes you better at it.
Checking/getting used to timings helps you in game since you then wont miss timing windows.
Makes me focus more.
A lot of gamers is doing it, and I highly doubt that's because they might be "bored".
I'm sure that spamming has made me used to higher speed and therefor gained multitasking abilities -> improved as a player.

[Arntzen]

no kazter did (implication of high skill), I was replying to him. It wasn't directed at u untill I wrote samuel

I said indicator of being better at multitasking or something like that.

So... higher EE ps equals higher sc2 ps/apm. Well hallelujah

I'll answer that with another quote:

Player speed is not important. Actions per minute is what is important.

[eeralf_]

only beer and zigarettes are important, without it, i cant play with insects , hahahahahahahaha

np, ps is ok, but like omega sayed, and some other goes to win, good luck, good map etc

[Captain Nemo]

no kazter did (implication of high skill), I was replying to him. It wasn't directed at u untill I wrote samuel

I said indicator of being better at multitasking or something like that.

So... higher EE ps equals higher sc2 ps/apm. Well hallelujah

I'll answer that with another quote:

Player speed is not important. Actions per minute is what is important.

If APM is measured like Omega defined then I guess I get sam's point It was seeming rather pointless to me at first haha. Anyway I don't know a single thing about SC2 I'd rather not reply to anything that has to do with that.

Btw kazter training would absolutely improve your gameplay. Perhaps not in the game u are currently playing but definitely for future games. The spamming I refer to are the completely useless hcccccc mainly, which was what I saw sam do in his video.

I don't get your placebo point? Seems you are just agreeing it's 100% placebo

In football we have a term called "staying on your toes". Basically if you stand normal you need to get on your toes, then run. So standing on your toes makes the running part quicker. This is something I relate to when it comes to all the spamming I do. Since I'm already very active, it feels like I'm "on my toes" and ready for most. I also believe the spamming makes me more focused in games.

Thats great. You do what it takes for you personally to be "on your toes" and thats great. We can all find our own way of doing that... I do it differently, always leaning forward for a game eventho basically I could sit right back in the relaxed position Im in now.

Reasons I highly doubt the effect is 100% placebo is:
Practicing high speed force feed rounds.
Checking/getting used to timings.

Training is hardly placebo or useless "spam". Learning the timings for each game, for when u have to forcefeed to get your units out isn't exactly spamming either, altho u are aware that u might be losing a slight ress income by forcefeeding too much, tho I haven't run tests on this it does seem logical u could lose some. Especially in low ages with slow gather rate.

I like your post btw kazter you are clearly explaining why it works for you personally. Leaving whether it'd work for others to themselves to figure out.

[ben55]

wow this thread.. is idk

[Samuel]

wow this thread.. is idk

lol its even more "idk" than the best players thread xD

Nemo I'll reply tomorrow or the day after tomorrow

[ben55]

wow this thread.. is idk

lol its even more "idk" than the best players thread xD

agreed, your four votes are more irrelevant than this discussion