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Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:27 am

Locodoco wrote:Awesome!

How about adding a new Tab in the Lobby interface Where it shows Everyone ranks in all set.

for example "Top Players in Middle" , " Top players in Islands " etc..


Nice idea bro :D

I planned to create a basic web site to check ranks and stats, it's easier to do and we have more control on it. Lobby modification is hard and time consuming.
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby Arntzen » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:54 am

drex888 wrote:
1v1 game:

Every 10 F11, the system evaluate the stats and decide who wins the round (1 round = 10 F11).
The "end of the game", from the the point of view of the Ranking System, happens when 1 player resign or drop or alt-F4 or crash or the game become uneven for some raison.

At the end of the game, the score is caluclated like this (only the 3 last rounds counts)

Just to make sure I understand: If game ends F11 31, then round 1 (0-10 F11) does not count, and round 2 (10-20 F11), round 3 (20-30 F11) and round 4 (30-31 F11) counts?
drex888 wrote: the loser's score(the fist guy who resigned or dropped or crashed or defeated): +2 points for each round win, -2 for each round lost, -4 Penalty for Defeat.
the winner (the other guy) : +2 for each round win, -2 points for each round lost, +4 Reward for Victory.

ex: if you win 2 rounds, you lose 1 round, but you win the game, your score = 2 + 2 - 2 + 4 = 6 points
your opponent's score = - 2 - 2 + 2 - 4 = -6 points

To be honest I'm not sure what the purpose of these ten minute rounds are, and just on the top of my head I see quite a few problems with it. If I'm playing someone exactly my level (we're playing equally good) and the only difference is that one of us got a better map, this person is going to win every single round just because of the map. That means that instead of just getting the penalty for losing the game, you are also getting penalized by getting a worse map. -2 - 2 - 2 - 4 = 10 points lost. Not only is this bad enough, but this kind of system means that there is even less incentive to try and play the game out to see if you are able to come back if it's a liga game (that usually don't last f11 30). The longer that game goes on the more rounds there will be. It's with this system better to see the map (knowing your against someone same level as you) and just drop so it's only -2 -4 = 6 points lost, than actually trying to play a steep uphill battle that most likely will just add more rounds to the game.
Another example is if we're playing identical. Same cit count, same amount of resources gathered, everything exactly the same except 1 player did a range upgrade, and the other made 1 more unit. For example Player A has 6 grenadiers with +1 range, and Player B has 7 grenadiers without any upgrades. In stats Player B will win, but Player A has spent more food/iron on his army, (Grenadier costs 40 food 40 iron, range upgrade for it costs 60 food 60 iron). This is just an example of how this system can have the opposite effect of what you want. Player A is outplaying Player B here, but loses the round because the stats don't care about upgrades.
Another example would be Stone age, one player uses his Spearman to kill 1 hippo and 4 elephant from the enemy, but loses the Spearman in the process. This is actually a good trade for him, but he will lose points in the stats by losing a unit and therefor if everything else is equal he will lose the round because of it.

I could go more into detail of why this might be problematic (like how this would incentivize someone who could win by attacking, to just stay in base and make the game longer so he wins more rounds), but I don't want to bore you with way too much text.

Suggestion: Right now 60% of the points comes from rounds, I think it should be more like 20%. For example 1 point per round and 12 point per win so 1 + 1 + 1 + 12 = 15.

drex888 wrote:Team game:

Team ranking works like 1v1. each player is evaluated indivdually compared to his direct opponenent(=the guy in front of him).
In team game, the "Loser" is the first player who resigned or dropped or crashed..., the "Winner" is the player in front of him.

- Winner's score = +2 for each round win, -2 for each round lost. +4 reward for victory.
- Loser's score = +2 for each round win, -2 for each round lost. -4 penalty for defeat.
- pocket/wing of the Winner = +2 for each round win, -2 for each round lost. +2 reward for victory.
- pocket/wing of the Loser = +2 for each round win, -2 for each round lost. -2 penalty for defeat.
- the other members of the winning team : +2 for each round win, -2 for each round lost. +1 reward for victory.
- the other members of the losing team : +2 for each round win, -2 for each round lost. -1 penalty for defeat.

Admittedly I am much less concerned with team game rankings, so I wouldn't prioritize improving this over the 1vs1 ranking, but I see quite a few problems here as well. Mainly how much rounds matter.
Example:
Mid SH 4vs4
Yukon(w)+Kaz(p)+Fly(p)+Fire(w) vs Jack(w)+Dave(p)+MnM(p)+Bandito(w), me and you are against Jack+Dave. This game you and Jack just defend and play equally good (same number of swords). F11 8 I need to help other side and I go and do so, meanwhile Dave decide to harass you. You lose 3 cits in the process and he gets away without losing any CA. Meanwhile I go and kill 3 cits on other side and get away without losing any CA. This would mean that Me+Dave (if we play equally well) would have same stats. You on the other hand, through no fault of your own, are losing the round to Jack.
How is this fair?

Generally speaking I think winning the game should give more points. Team game rankings are almost impossible to make 100% fair, but I think eventually the players that win more games deserve more points. Sometimes you get doubled and hold it (lose a lot of units and citizens in the process) allowing the rest of your team to win the game. With the current system you would lose all rounds here (-2 - 2 - 2 + 1 = -5), but in fact you were the main reason your team won.

drex888 wrote: :idea:
- In fact, you win/lose more or less than 2 points per round, and more or less points per victory or defeat. depending on balance of power between you and your direct opponent.
- The Ranking System uses Elo formula to determine the amount of points you win or you lose.
- Your opponent's score is always the opposite of your score.

I hope that was clear. :D


drex/yukon

So imagine me and Dave having similar Elo score.
Example A: I'm facing Dave and I'm teamed with noob1, noob2 and noob3. Dave is teamed with Krass, Samuel and Nafrayu. My team end up losing (surprise surprise).
Example B: I'm facing Dave and I'm teamed with noob1, noob2 and noob3. Dave is teamed with noob4, noob5 and noob6. My team end up losing.
Just to be clear, are you saying I'll be losing the same amount of points in example A and B?
I think the Elo formula that determine the amount of points you win or lose in a team game should take into account what team you have and what team your direct opponent has. If not we're just going to end up with people complaining even more about the team selection.
At this point I very rarely face a direct opponent with similar skill to me. We therefor balance the game so I get a weaker wing or pocket than him to make the game more fair. With the current ranking system for team games I would get completely screwed over if my teams Elo and my direct opponent teams Elo doesn't count when the system determine the amount of points I win/lose.
A Good Place to Start: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3884
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby Neotje » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:22 pm

drex888 wrote:
Locodoco wrote:Awesome!

How about adding a new Tab in the Lobby interface Where it shows Everyone ranks in all set.

for example "Top Players in Middle" , " Top players in Islands " etc..


Nice idea bro :D

I planned to create a basic web site to check ranks and stats, it's easier to do and we have more control on it. Lobby modification is hard and time consuming.


Don't forget that the lobby already has kind of a website interface! You could use the NeoEE tab for it I guess?
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:47 am

Just to make sure I understand: If game ends F11 31, then round 1 (0-10 F11) does not count, and round 2 (10-20 F11), round 3 (20-30 F11) and round 4 (30-31 F11) counts?

Incomplet rounds doesn't counts.
F11 31 = 3 rounds : 0-9, 10-19, 30-29.


To be honest I'm not sure what the purpose of these ten minute rounds are, and just on the top of my head I see quite a few problems with it. If I'm playing someone exactly my level (we're playing equally good) and the only difference is that one of us got a better map, this person is going to win every single round just because of the map. That means that instead of just getting the penalty for losing the game, you are also getting penalized by getting a worse map. -2 - 2 - 2 - 4 = 10 points lost. Not only is this bad enough, but this kind of system means that there is even less incentive to try and play the game out to see if you are able to come back if it's a liga game (that usually don't last f11 30). The longer that game goes on the more rounds there will be. It's with this system better to see the map (knowing your against someone same level as you) and just drop so it's only -2 -4 = 6 points lost, than actually trying to play a steep uphill battle that most likely will just add more rounds to the game.


P1 vs P2: P1 lose, the game lasts 30 F11:

Without rounds, (unchanged):
P1: -10 / P2: +10

Rounds (wrost scenario)
P1: -2 -2 -2 - 4 = -10 / P2: 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 10

Rounds (best scenario, this typically happens when P1 is winning the game but the game crashes)
P1: 2 + 2 + 2 - 4 = 2 / P2: -2 -2 -2 + 4 = - 2

Rounds gives the possibility to the good players to comeback in the score, that rewards hard work.
More mostly, rounds provides to the system a way to compare theirs skill, ex (without rounds):
P1 win vs P2 => P1: 10pts, P2 : 0 pts
P3 win vs P2 => P3: 10pts, P2 : 0 pts
Who is the best, P1 or P3?

In Adddtion, you win more points when you play a long game:
ex: you win a long game F11 60, during this time, I'm iplaying another game, I win 3 quick games (F11 15).
without rounds: you: 10 points / me: 30 pts
with rounds: you: 10 pts / me: 18 pts;

"Suggestion: Right now 60% of the points comes from rounds, I think it should be more like 20%. For example 1 point per round and 12 point per win so 1 + 1 + 1 + 12 = 15."

Since I don't play 1v1 and didn't tested ranking's behaviour in 1v1. We can start with 20% rounds / 80% victory as you propose, we adapate it during the tests.
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:24 am

Admittedly I am much less concerned with team game rankings, so I wouldn't prioritize improving this over the 1vs1 ranking, but I see quite a few problems here as well. Mainly how much rounds matter.
Example:
Mid SH 4vs4
Yukon(w)+Kaz(p)+Fly(p)+Fire(w) vs Jack(w)+Dave(p)+MnM(p)+Bandito(w), me and you are against Jack+Dave. This game you and Jack just defend and play equally good (same number of swords). F11 8 I need to help other side and I go and do so, meanwhile Dave decide to harass you. You lose 3 cits in the process and he gets away without losing any CA. Meanwhile I go and kill 3 cits on other side and get away without losing any CA. This would mean that Me+Dave (if we play equally well) would have same stats. You on the other hand, through no fault of your own, are losing the round to Jack.
How is this fair?

Generally speaking I think winning the game should give more points. Team game rankings are almost impossible to make 100% fair, but I think eventually the players that win more games deserve more points. Sometimes you get doubled and hold it (lose a lot of units and citizens in the process) allowing the rest of your team to win the game. With the current system you would lose all rounds here (-2 - 2 - 2 + 1 = -5), but in fact you were the main reason your team won.


Team Game:
if a player got -2 -2 -2 (he lose all rounds) that could mean 2 things :
- his direct opponent is too strong for him, in this case, following Elo forumula, he don't lose 2 pts per round, but less (maybe -0.5 -0.5 -0.5 or 0 0 0)
-or, he was doubled during whole the game (F11 30), in the same time his team is winning the other side (strange). in my opionion, this case will not happen often
if that occurs this unfortunate wing should quickly change his pocket

The moral of this story : Everyone should take care of his own wing/pocket and keep an eye on his direct opponnent. :mrgreen:
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:20 am

So imagine me and Dave having similar Elo score.
Example A: I'm facing Dave and I'm teamed with noob1, noob2 and noob3. Dave is teamed with Krass, Samuel and Nafrayu. My team end up losing (surprise surprise).
Example B: I'm facing Dave and I'm teamed with noob1, noob2 and noob3. Dave is teamed with noob4, noob5 and noob6. My team end up losing.
Just to be clear, are you saying I'll be losing the same amount of points in example A and B?
I think the Elo formula that determine the amount of points you win or lose in a team game should take into account what team you have and what team your direct opponent has. If not we're just going to end up with people complaining even more about the team selection.
At this point I very rarely face a direct opponent with similar skill to me. We therefor balance the game so I get a weaker wing or pocket than him to make the game more fair. With the current ranking system for team games I would get completely screwed over if my teams Elo and my direct opponent teams Elo doesn't count when the system determine the amount of points I win/lose.


Yes, you lose same amount of points in the two example, but :

- The Ranking system will provides 2 chat commands to balance teams. /qt and /mm
- Elo foumula applies only to 1v1 games. this is just my adaptation to EE team game. I am not against modifications or suggestions.
- To resolve this problem, i could add a check before each game, when a game is too much unbalanced, the ranking don't works.
- Lose sames games in Elo system is not fatal, if u r really good, you can catch your real level quickly.
- Seriously, why would you play the game of Example A :D
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby Locodoco » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:49 am

Question

Elo resets on new accounts? or each person has his own Elo no matter what account he uses?
pody: eC .. is etc for what ?
_[eC]_Arntzen_: european cunts
pody: ahh .. ok bro
_[eC]_Arntzen_: np
_[eC]_Arntzen_: :)
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:49 am

Locodoco wrote:Question

Elo resets on new accounts? or each person has his own Elo no matter what account he uses?


each person has his own Elo no matter what account he uses
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:58 am

Neotje wrote:Don't forget that the lobby already has kind of a website interface! You could use the NeoEE tab for it I guess?


EE browser's is old, it based on Internet Explorer 6 or something like that :lol:, it doesn't support all good new stuff (css, javascript, html5)
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby D55 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:41 pm

I think you should add a ranking systems for amounts of times players game crashes and lag so we know who does that shit the most.
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:41 pm

D55 wrote:I think you should add a ranking systems for amounts of times players game crashes and lag so we know who does that shit the most.


Probably I'll include it in a future release :D
I am curious to see who will the unfortunate winner :mr green:
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby drex888 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:58 pm

Love this! I also have a lot of chat command suggestions, don't know if possible or not ofc :D Here they are:
"/mids" Short for mid SH small sets all the mid settings with small map + 20 citizen to everyone in the room (small, plains, SH, 1200, easy, mid-mid, tournament, off wonder, very fast, reveal on, custom civ on, lock speed/team on)
"/midm" Short for mid SH medium, you get the deal :D
"/ligas" Short for liga small
"/ligam" Short for liga medium
"/pres" Sets pre sh settings with small map (small, conti, sh, 1200, easy, pre-nano, standard, off, very fast, reveal map off, civ/team/speed is checked)
"/prem" Sets pre SH settings with medium map (medium, medit, sh, ... same as pres)
"/prel" Sets pre SH settings with large map (large, medit, sh, ... same as pres)
"/islm" Short for island medium, sets P2N island f11 60 settings for medium map
"/isll" Short for island large, same as islm but large map
Only problem I can see with this is that some want more pop, and so either just leave all at 1200 and let host manually set pop to what he wants, or add another version of every command like "midsp" short for mid SH small pop that gives 4000 pop automatically.


I like this idea, 1 command for each ranked game:
/isl /mid /liga /pre /mod /indy
useless to specify the size of th map. can be deducted from the number of players in the game.

The only problem I see, is the bug in the list "Map Type". The order of items is not the same in different languages.
ex:
In the french version of EE, "Large Islands" is in the 2nd position of "Map Type" list.
In the english version, "Large Islands" is in the 3rd position.

but nvm i'll find a solution.
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby Neotje » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:29 pm

Is it possible to autosave when the host drops? As in when you get the 20 seconds.. 15 seconds etc timer? This could help a lot...
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby Arntzen » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:48 pm

Neotje wrote:Is it possible to autosave when the host drops? As in when you get the 20 seconds.. 15 seconds etc timer? This could help a lot...

Would be amazing, but think I've asked about this long time ago and got told it was impossible. With this happening you don't even need the 15 seconds waiting period. Could just be instant :D
A Good Place to Start: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3884
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Re: Drexmod 3: Upcoming features

Postby Neotje » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:22 pm

Well if it somehow automatically hits F4 after the 15 minutes end it would also be totally fine. Currently I just wait until this last message starts before moving host and then I start spamming F4 as much as possible hoping it saves in time after I get host... Works quite often but total stress giver.
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