Oldschool vs Newschool

[Samuel]

I will reply in detail to Late later, in about 2 hours or so, given I need to go soon. I just wanted to state some points.

_Kazter: I asked ras different times about players, he said that Krass would make the top 5 and that he really didn't know who would be the best in his top 5, and rated him just as good as the very best oldschoolers. He also put Goldeneye in the top 30, and me in the top 40. When I asked him about Kirac, he said that he'd be just as good as an average liga player.

_BigRon: thanks for providing the link. If you didn't know it yet, Late, he happens to be KrasS' number one fan in this community. I think he's secretly in love with him ;PP

_Kazter: Nevermind told me that on different occasions, different oldschool pros came back in 2007, "but they were all beaten by Goldeneye".


I'll talk about it later and respond to some of the things Late said as well as commenting further on the previous points.

[CusTomm_]

3000 ps? I saw some games with 3000 ps, but it was useless because the way these people got 3000ps was by typing ctrl 500 times when attacking. .

First of all I agree that people with more competition can achieve far more in a quicker time. But what you maybe forget is that Krass, Sam and all those people still had competition in 2006, not like it was the same amount as in 2002 but still enough imo. But even some great players developed in this lobby only, like Arntzen, without any competition, idk if he is as good as players back then but even if not your theory would declare that people can become outstanding but still not pro? Doesnt make sense imo.

Now to the micro thing. I can just not understand what u r trying to say. Player speed and micro might be important but do you really think that this is the most important thing in ee? Thats a generalisation which is not true. Micro can be the most important thing in 1 game, in another it might be booming in another it might be defending skills, in another the quick and unsuspected swap to a different unit. Just an example, when you have 5 cav vs 10 cav your micro wouldnt care anyone (alright you will prolly say that 5 cav can win vs 10 cav with a pro micro, but lets say you r not playing against a noob). EE and many RTS games are simply more than Micro, Booming, Rush, which are the three main parts that many people reduce the game to.

[lightnessking.]

Micro is one of the key factors of succesfully winning a battle in a game. It's not specificly winning you the game, it's just winning you a battle. Now the next point is, was this a game-deciding battle, yes or no.

Anyways. "defending skills" = partly strategy, partly micro.
You can think of a plan of an amazing defensive setup (the strategy), but if you can't handle your units properly (the micro) then the strategy will most likely fail. Or atleast, be less succesfull than actually planned.

Now after an assault on your base, you want your citizens back on mines/farms/wood etc as fast as possible, without loosing too many resources. This is where macro kicks in. (assuming you've had your citizens run into safety, while protecting your base versus enemy assaults.) If you had citizens on a hotkeys. For example hotkey 8-9-0 contain 8 farmers each. You don't want to send them to an iron mine or a tree causing them to lose potentiel food which haven't been deposited yet. (Ofcourse, assumed when this is early game and you don't have many resources available, if you have 5000 food, you're obviously not going to worry about this.)

Same goes with metal gathering citizens, I personally hotkey atleast 2x6 citizens which are gathering metals. After I get attacked and I ran my citizens into safety, the first thing I do is press 1 and send them back to a metal mine. Then I press 2, and do the same thing again. After I've send my farmers back aswell, there will still be idle citizens left. Then I press 1 again, refill the group to 6 and right click the mine where they belong (if one or more of them died.) and press ctrl+1 again. Same goes for ctrl 2 group.


It's false to say that micro defines a game for a fully 100%, but it's accurate enough to say that proper micro can increase your rate of victories in a game. Together with strategy and macro and knowledge, you can be really succesfull in a game versus a proper player.

[CusTomm_]

It's false to say that micro defines a game for a fully 100%, but it's accurate enough to say that proper micro can increase your rate of victories in a game. Together with strategy and macro and knowledge, you can be really succesfull in a game versus a proper player.

Exactly what I was saying, wasnt it ?

Why do you have to analyse everything ? Noone wanted to hear all that

Now after an assault on your base, you want your citizens back on mines/farms/wood etc as fast as possible, without loosing too many resources. This is where macro kicks in. (assuming you've had your citizens run into safety, while protecting your base versus enemy assaults.) If you had citizens on a hotkeys. For example hotkey 8-9-0 contain 8 farmers each. You don't want to send them to an iron mine or a tree causing them to lose potentiel food which haven't been deposited yet. (Ofcourse, assumed when this is early game and you don't have many resources available, if you have 5000 food, you're obviously not going to worry about this.)

Same goes with metal gathering citizens, I personally hotkey atleast 2x6 citizens which are gathering metals. After I get attacked and I ran my citizens into safety, the first thing I do is press 1 and send them back to a metal mine. Then I press 2, and do the same thing again. After I've send my farmers back aswell, there will still be idle citizens left. Then I press 1 again, refill the group to 6 and right click the mine where they belong (if one or more of them died.) and press ctrl+1 again. Same goes for ctrl 2 group.

NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC lol

[Samuel]

.
Anyways. "defending skills" = partly strategy, partly micro.

Correct.

Anyway, Late, it's not like newschoolers started playing "alone" and there was a big jump, as in 2006/2007 there were still some oldschoolers playing, Insane was actually one of them I was told.

And the competitive scene in like 2008/2009 was much better than what you imagine. It didn't have hundreds of liga players, but you could consistently play good Liga 1v1s every day. I know you pretty much doubt the "good Liga 1v1s" part, but I guess you'll have to keep reading for now.

I know that ras (_ViE_ras_, same clan as be) claims that oldschoolers were better, however something just doesn't seem quite right if you think about it logically. Ras himself admitted he's not the best liga players between the newschoolers, and he's been playing this game since it came out.
Now, he was in ViE .... don't you think that ras, after keeping on playing, must have improved further during the years? Let's suppose Be was as godlike as some people claim he was, and that in spite of his years of gaming, ras wasn't actually able to reach be's skills (which is unlikely), it's pretty safe to conclude that he must have AT LEAST gotten near him after so many years of experience, with oldschoolers and newschoolers included.

Then how come ras still isn't the very best player out there amongst the newschool? By what you say, following this logic, ras should at least be able to easily dominate the best of the newschoolers.

Unless, of course, you claim there must have been three universes of difference between ras and be, which is unlikely, given they trained together

[Samuel]

.
Anyways. "defending skills" = partly strategy, partly micro.

Correct.

Anyway, Late, it's not like newschoolers started playing "alone" and there was a big jump, as in 2006/2007 there were still some oldschoolers playing, Insane was actually one of them I was told.

And the competitive scene in like 2008/2009 was much better than what you imagine. It didn't have hundreds of liga players, but you could consistently play good Liga 1v1s every day. I know you pretty much doubt the "good Liga 1v1s" part, but I guess you'll have to keep reading for now.

I know that ras (_ViE_ras_, same clan as be) claims that oldschoolers were better, however something just doesn't seem quite right if you think about it logically. Ras himself admitted he's not the best liga players between the newschoolers, and he's been playing this game since it came out.
Now, he was in ViE .... don't you think that ras, after keeping on playing, must have improved further during the years? Let's suppose Be was as godlike as some people claim he was, and that in spite of his years of gaming, ras wasn't actually able to reach be's skills (which is unlikely), it's pretty safe to conclude that he must have AT LEAST gotten near him after so many years of experience, with oldschoolers and newschoolers included.

Then how come ras still isn't the very best player out there amongst the newschool? By what you say, following this logic, ras should at least be able to easily dominate the best of the newschoolers.
Unless, of course, you claim there must have been three universes of difference between ras and be, which is unlikely, given they trained together

Another important thing to mention is the fact that it isn't us having to prove the quality of newschoolers, it's oldschoolers to eventually have to prove they had the quality they claimed to have. Many oldschoolers who came back tried to prove their quality, including Be. So far, none of them ever succeeded to even become top 10 liga players.

[BigRon]

People were able to glitch until Omega patch came out which removed the tributes.

So every argument about any god-like tribute screen player is invalid. Some glitching here, some glitching there and you are one step ahead and no one noticed.

_)_s(_)n-pRoJeKt_(_Constanzo_ was considered the best player but nobody knew (until later)that he was just hardcore glitching.

So I think we can all agree that KrasS is world best player EVER next to no one else than our dearest friend Watoy a.k.a simple_faith. (proved his victory against Krass with a screenshot)

[lightnessking.]

It's false to say that micro defines a game for a fully 100%, but it's accurate enough to say that proper micro can increase your rate of victories in a game. Together with strategy and macro and knowledge, you can be really succesfull in a game versus a proper player.

Exactly what I was saying, wasnt it ?

Why do you have to analyse everything ? Noone wanted to hear all that

Now after an assault on your base, you want your citizens back on mines/farms/wood etc as fast as possible, without loosing too many resources. This is where macro kicks in. (assuming you've had your citizens run into safety, while protecting your base versus enemy assaults.) If you had citizens on a hotkeys. For example hotkey 8-9-0 contain 8 farmers each. You don't want to send them to an iron mine or a tree causing them to lose potentiel food which haven't been deposited yet. (Ofcourse, assumed when this is early game and you don't have many resources available, if you have 5000 food, you're obviously not going to worry about this.)

Same goes with metal gathering citizens, I personally hotkey atleast 2x6 citizens which are gathering metals. After I get attacked and I ran my citizens into safety, the first thing I do is press 1 and send them back to a metal mine. Then I press 2, and do the same thing again. After I've send my farmers back aswell, there will still be idle citizens left. Then I press 1 again, refill the group to 6 and right click the mine where they belong (if one or more of them died.) and press ctrl+1 again. Same goes for ctrl 2 group.

NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC lol

Perhaps you call it analyzing, I call it knowledge.
PS: It does have somewhat to do with the topic, it just contains a explanation and a few examples which belong to the training-section. You didn't have to read it, but don't cry about it.

But if you can keep all the small things in mind and execute them properly, while -pwning- the main micro/macro/strategy and more, then you will have a higher rate of succes. You're probably going to deny it, so my next respond will be: you can't deny it.

[Late_]

Anyway, Late, it's not like newschoolers started playing "alone" and there was a big jump, as in 2006/2007 there were still some oldschoolers playing, Insane was actually one of them I was told.

I can assure you insane didnt play any active ee in 2006/07, he was third in another game at wcg in 2005 and started playing poker afterwards if i recall correctly. From that point on he refused to play any game activly if not on a pro-lvl assuring him enough income to pay for his studys.

I know that ras (_ViE_ras_, same clan as be) claims that oldschoolers were better, however something just doesn't seem quite right if you think about it logically. Ras himself admitted he's not the best liga players between the newschoolers, and he's been playing this game since it came out.
Now, he was in ViE .... don't you think that ras, after keeping on playing, must have improved further during the years? Let's suppose Be was as godlike as some people claim he was, and that in spite of his years of gaming, ras wasn't actually able to reach be's skills (which is unlikely), it's pretty safe to conclude that he must have AT LEAST gotten near him after so many years of experience, with oldschoolers and newschoolers included.

to be honest, i dont quite understand all that hype arround Be, he never was kown to be that good in the eu scene. His ping delays didnt allow any good games anyways, isnt he australian?

Then how come ras still isn't the very best player out there amongst the newschool? By what you say, following this logic, ras should at least be able to easily dominate the best of the newschoolers.

no, what i wrote is actually that your skill also declines when there is no competition. The weaker the players are you are playing against the worse you play yourself, given enough time. Anyways every player has a "skill-limited" set by mind or body. Its like not everyone can become a pro soccer player just cos he trained with really good ones since hes 4y old.

Unless, of course, you claim there must have been three universes of difference between ras and be, which is unlikely, given they trained together

As said before, i dont quite get the hype arround BE here. He was never known to be the best of the best back then. You should keep in mind though that in the early stages of the game there were two server. Though early the eu-player were worse, later on they actually got alot better than the ones playing on the other (us east/west??) server. Which was actually the same problem, there people vanished and basicly noone was playing there anymore and eu kept being active and the scene (competion!!!) was much bigger.

[Samuel]

http://seigneurs.free.fr/feteforraine/tournoi/1.htm

Tournament organized by RS.

~Stolichnaya~ is _ViE_BE_ smurfing (as confirmed by ras, and by the fact that Stolichnaya happens to be Be's favourite brand of Vodka).


From the same site: "Hi everyone, here we go...It is now official. The RS Clan organize an EE tournament. The Tournament will take place on Saturday 5 April 2003 at 21:00 on the Asia server, room "Tournoi RS""

just so we have an idea when it took place

[[-Ts-] Tricky]

no, what i wrote is actually that your skill also declines when there is no competition. The weaker the players are you are playing against the worse you play yourself, given enough time. Anyways every player has a "skill-limited" set by mind or body. Its like not everyone can become a pro soccer player just cos he trained with really good ones since hes 4y old.

I agree on this tbh i think the lack of competition in later years is why goldeneye,krass,ras started to give up on ee well krass moved to sc2. I think you need to have your bar set high to improve as a player you need to play top players oftern to improve yourself.

But even some great players developed in this lobby only, like Arntzen, without any competition,

Well this is untrue custom because kazter started to improve by the help of ras also playing against people like sam and others. You cant say he improved without any competition.

[CusTomm_]

no, what i wrote is actually that your skill also declines when there is no competition. The weaker the players are you are playing against the worse you play yourself, given enough time. Anyways every player has a "skill-limited" set by mind or body. Its like not everyone can become a pro soccer player just cos he trained with really good ones since hes 4y old.

I agree on this tbh i think the lack of competition in later years is why goldeneye,krass,ras started to give up on ee well krass moved to sc2. I think you need to have your bar set high to improve as a player you need to play top players oftern to improve yourself.

But even some great players developed in this lobby only, like Arntzen, without any competition,

Well this is untrue custom because kazter started to improve by the help of ras also playing against people like sam and others. You cant say he improved without any competition.

However Tricky. But Late said that people cant become as good because of a lack of competition. Something is simply wrong... either there still is competition in a different way or people can become really good without any competition.

[Late_]

no, what i wrote is actually that your skill also declines when there is no competition. The weaker the players are you are playing against the worse you play yourself, given enough time. Anyways every player has a "skill-limited" set by mind or body. Its like not everyone can become a pro soccer player just cos he trained with really good ones since hes 4y old.

I agree on this tbh i think the lack of competition in later years is why goldeneye,krass,ras started to give up on ee well krass moved to sc2. I think you need to have your bar set high to improve as a player you need to play top players oftern to improve yourself.

But even some great players developed in this lobby only, like Arntzen, without any competition,

Well this is untrue custom because kazter started to improve by the help of ras also playing against people like sam and others. You cant say he improved without any competition.

However Tricky. But Late said that people cant become as good because of a lack of competition. Something is simply wrong... either there still is competition in a different way or people can become really good without any competition.

Don't just make up arguments or explanations just cos you dont like where other arguments lead too. How about im right, and the overall skill is just lower then it used to be? This has nothing to do with krass being really good at another game, it just shows his natural talent for computergames is kinda high. He would prolly have made an excellent player back then aswell.

[Samuel]

as if you had provided solid proof for that

[CusTomm_]

Don't just make up arguments or explanations just cos you dont like where other arguments lead too. How about im right, and the overall skill is just lower then it used to be? This has nothing to do with krass being really good at another game, it just shows his natural talent for computergames is kinda high. He would prolly have made an excellent player back then aswell.

Thats funny. As you have maybe seen, I have already answered in a longer post a bit above, I will not repeat everything. In my opinion my arguments made sense. You just speculate that people cant get as good without the competition from earlier on, just an idea that you cant prove