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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:13 am
Lobby Username: _[eC]_Arntzen_
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Post by Arntzen »

I've decided to make a guide/tutorial or whatever you want to call it, about P2N. It'll be in three parts. First is about wing, second about pocket and in the last part I will share some tips and tricks that I've picked up over the years that are specially useful in P2N.
My goal with this guide is to be educational, I will therefor be talking about the meta game and not about shitty civilizations/strategies.


The standard civilization, in my opinion, and the civilization I recommend everyone to use:
yyyy wingstandard.jpg
yyyy wingstandard.jpg (35.03 KiB) Viewed 4567 times
The only thing this civilization doesn't have, that others might is Prophet CR/BTD, Citizen CR and Club BTD.
The reason those things aren't in the standard civilization is because Wing play is mainly about massing club men. The reason you don't have BTD on clubs in the standard civ is because it's too expensive and you need Citizen HP against double club, or if you've got a shitty map.
Basically with this civilization you'll consistently play solid wing play, no matter what you're against. Which is why this one is standard.

This is the civilization I recommend if you are absolute certain you're against double club:
zzzz wing strong.jpg
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The reason is simple, this is the civilization which gives you the biggest chance to survive. Build your base as compact as you can so you can have more clubs following the enemy and defending your pocket. With strong towers in a compact base, all you need is a few clubs in base and you'll never die.

This is the civilization I recommend if your enemy wing ain't that difficult and you're planning on tributing your pocket a lot:
zzzz wing ccr.jpg
zzzz wing ccr.jpg (34.8 KiB) Viewed 4567 times
This civilization doesn't have Building CR/Citizen HP and Pop Cap, but it does have Citizen CR. Since you're only gonna have 150 pop it's actually a worse long game civilization than the standard one, Citizen CR only really helps the first F11 60 and if you're not being careful your non HP-boosted Citizen will die very quickly.
Out of the three wing civilizations in this post this is definitely the most difficult one to use. And to be honest, many good P2N players are using it completely wrong. What you want to do here is to keep up with the enemy club count, while sneaking in more citizen in your production early on. These extra citizen should mainly be sent to wood, and all the overflow wood you're getting should be tributed to your pocket as soon as possible. There is no point for you to use this civilization to rush for Copper unless you plan on being very aggressive at that time. It's also better if you're planning on tributing a lot to your pocket to tribute as soon as possible, instead of tributing nothing until you're in Middle Ages and the tributes you'll send will basically be way less influential because your pocket is already at a very high epoch and his resource gather rate is therefor very high. Tributing early and helping your pocket get the resource gather rate boosts earlier will let his economy snowball and is definitely the way to go. I can't tell how many times after games I've won I'll see the statistics where I only got 800 resources from my wing, and my enemy pocket got 18000. Yet he got those tributes way too late and the 800 I got in Stone Age was way more helpful.

What's expected
In general what's expected by wings is to match the club count of your enemy wing, and your goal is to do more damage to the enemy team than your opposing wing. If you let clubs run passed your base, it's your job to follow them. Also, this might be hard for many wing players to swallow, but in mid and late game pockets are far more important. For example, if the enemy is double club and one of them is going for your pocket, while the other is hitting you, you should always prioritize defending your pocket over yourself. Why? Well if it isn't obvious: Wings whole strategy is early game oriented, while pockets strategy is mid-late game oriented. Therefor they get more superior the longer the game goes.

Early game you're expected to scout your enemy wing, if his base is towered up and well defended you'll also run to enemy pocket to scout or maybe kill a few citizen. There is basically only two things you're expected to tell your team. If it's one way, and if you're against double clubs. However you should tell this as fast as possible since these two things will force your team to play differently than standard.
Your main focus early on is to make sure no enemy clubs reach your pocket, and the best way to do this is to be a pain in the ass to your opponent. If you get passed you should mainly focus on hurting the enemy pocket. Sometimes good wings will let you hit their base while they hit your pocket, which is a bad situation for your team.

Mid game you're expected to have templed up and built a nice base which makes it easier for you to defend. I'm not talking about a full wall here, but rather walled off a few ways into your base with a couple settlements which will really make your life easier. What you do in the mid game depends on how the game is going. If there's basically no way to hurt your enemy wing or get to your pocket, get a prophet and hurricane the sea. If you've been able to hit your enemy well and he's struggling you should keep the pressure up and maybe even hit the pocket furthest away from you. There's nothing that hurts the enemy team's morale more than "OMG WING FROM OTHER SIDE IS HERE". And if you're able to get the enemy team to bitch to each other then you're definitely doing great!

Late game it's your job to temple the wall, and basically help your pocket as much as you can. As a rule of thumb it's always good to get at least one transport ship to harass. At this point in the game the pocket has a lot more on his to-do list than you. Therefor a good wing will help his pocket by flaring at holes in the wall, take a glance once in a while on his base to see that that there is in fact 6 citizens on all his mines and so on. Of course you shouldn't go full TNT and chat constantly which pisses your pocket off and in return is doing more harm than good. Making wall between you and your pocket, getting strategy hero for his siege and having multiple prophets ready to quake down enemy walls are all examples of things that are useful and helps your team.


The standard Pocket civilization I recommend everyone to use:
zzzz pock standard.jpg
zzzz pock standard.jpg (41.32 KiB) Viewed 4567 times
This is by far the best pocket civilization I've ever played with. You can counter everything with this, if you know how. Like the standard Wing civilization this will over all give the best results. Unless you have specific reasons to use one of the other two civilizations below, this is the one you should use.

This is the civilization I recommend if you want to mass spears quickly:
zzzz pocket hunt.jpg
zzzz pocket hunt.jpg (39.19 KiB) Viewed 4567 times
This civilization combined with a wing player using the civilization against double clubs will certainly demolish the double clubs strategy. You're not going all in, however. In case you're not against double clubs this civilization is still extremely useful. If you're against a pocket player which booms poorly, and makes a ton of spear early, then this civilization is a better bet than the standard one. If they are playing normal you can put a lot of damage on your opponents with this one, while having good economy behind it. You should tell your wing that you're massing here so that he can be on the same page and understand that you want to hurt your enemy early on. You don't really need to kill them, but take control over the early and mid game and try go for his docs. Often just by the fact that you're attacking them and therefor not being hit yourself you can out boom your opponent even if he's using a civilization with farming.
You do however need to do some damage here. If the map screws you over, lets say there's a thin path to you're enemy wing which is towered and has morale, you'll have to land or hurricane or both! On the other hand though, because of hunting boost you should be first to copper, and since you're massing spear you should have good map control. This means it'll be easier for you to wall, and can grant you some extra mines. Which will be extremely helpful in late game.

If your opponents are weak early game I recommend using this civilization:
zzzz pock club.jpg
zzzz pock club.jpg (40.7 KiB) Viewed 4567 times
Yes, this civilization is for clubs, and it's not exactly common in a P2N game were all the players are good. But it's certainly a civilization you should have up your sleeve. Most often this civilization will be used against a bad enemy wing. Good wings knows how to defend against double club much more efficiently and won't let their pocket get nuked by 30 clubs F11 13. However good wings also get greedy, and go for civilizations without Building CR and Citizen HP. Good wings also tend to build their towers to give them good vision around their base, instead of building them compact to actually defend their mines, since their good club micro can do that for them. Against these players double clubs can do wonders.
You are getting gold from your wing and making a prophet very early and you are going to have to be very aggressive and do a ton of damage for this civilization to be useful. You don't necessarily need to quake your enemy wing's base with the prophet, sometimes a good plague/malaria can do the trick. Sometimes its good to go for an early hurricane which will slow both enemy pockets down (if the sea isn't too big).
This civilization does have Bomber SPD and Building Range which might seem odd, but there isn't really that many good options unless you also take away Pop Cap or Building CR. Having Building Range in the civilization is good in case of one way (and of course if you want to use this in wing), and Bomber SPD is always handy in case the game goes on forever.

What's expected
As pocket you're expected to have the same spear count as your enemy pocket. You're also expected to be able to get a good boom going, and carrying the game later on.

Early game you're expected to tower your base and get 6 houses so that in case some clubs get passed your wing you'll at least minimize the damage. You should create a dog to scout around your base, and you're expected to send your wing iron, and if he asks you'll send him gold as well.

Mid game you're expected to have an army size that matches your enemy pocket, while booming. Also you should give up your forage when the wing asks for them, rule of thumb is one forage at F11 25, the second at F11 30.

Late game you're expected to do tons of stuff. Firstly once you reach Copper you have to make walls fast. The faster the better. Have some army also to defend the citizen trying to wall. Get Hero as soon as possible, ideally right when you hit Copper. You're expected to make Coliseum and other wonders. Also you need to wall the sea quick, if you can do it before F11 40 you'll basically never need to worry about the enemy landing. As you can tell there's a lot of stone needed in copper, so here I recommend always having two stone mines with Town Center at F11 25. Like with the mid game where you're expected to match your enemy pocket's army size in spears, you're also expected to match his army in late game as well. If he's getting siege, you got to get siege, if he's making air planes you got to make fighters and so on.
Making wall around wood in case of enemy barbarians and making double wall in case enemy tries to use siege tower to get over your wall is also the pockets job to do. Generally a good pocket is expected to know what he needs in order to win the game, if you don't have enough gold you're expected to ask for gold tribute or a gold mine, if you want to push and attack for example in Bronze you should give your wing a heads up like "get prophets ready, I will push soon".


Hospital, University and Fortress are buildings many people forget about. In P2N there is a use for all of them. As a pocket player the latest possible time you should get a hospital up is in Dark age. This is when the +5 pop cap boost is available, but if you're in danger in the time after you've gotten to Copper and before Dark age you should get hospital up to get the Citizen HP boost. University is mainly only important if you plan to tribute, the first upgrade gets available in Dark age and makes tributing 50% cheaper. Late game however, you should be getting the building HP boosts from university because they're great.
Fortress is something I often get if my spear and hero army can't do anything. This usually happens when both me and my enemy pocket walls at the same time. Making a fortress for 350 maybe seems expensive, but freeing up 20 population for citizens will surely pay those 350 wood back very shortly. You can also use fortress as wing in case you made a couple of prophets and you're pocket isn't planing on attacking any time soon. Prophets are 5 pop each so it's a pain to watch them use up valuable population just hanging around doing nothing, and you certainly don't want to delete them. Fortress saves the day!

Strong pushes and what counters them:
Pro-rush is definitely the strongest push that can completely surprise your opponents and win you the game in seconds. A perfect malaria/plague or even just a very early quake has killed every one of us P2N players. Counter: TEMPLE!

Pro-rush as pocket with transport ship, now that's awesome. Hurricane is probably your best bet, specially since you can group speed it with your fish boats. This works best on maps with a big sea where a hurricane from your side wouldn't get far. Landing a prophet right next to the enemies docs kills a shit ton of boats very quickly. This push is very strong, but takes preparation, it forces you to make early temple and on top of that it costs 200 food, 200 gold and 250 wood. Counter: HELP?! Fast reaction, and not having all your boats on the same spot is your best bet.

Hero is used every game in P2N. But not as often as a "strong push". If you think you're a little bit a head of your enemy pocket, or the map is very wide so walling early isn't going to be easy. Having the resources ready and clicking R (hotkey for hero) right when you reach Copper and then attacking once it's out can be really deadly. This is specially useful if there is some mines out there in the middle and you want to make sure you get map control so you can wall it. Counter: Having hero of your own, having morale where you want to wall or having couple of prophets ready.

Temple of Zues has a lot of possibilities. As Wing landing and plaguing the enemy with Zues can really turn the game around. As Pocket it can be used multiple ways. Your best bet is Bronze age, but if the enemy were slow with wall and you got in to his base, getting Zues while not wasting your army, can make you into a pain in the ass running around behind enemy lines for a very long time. Counter: Early walls on sea, and walling between the bases. Combining that with Ishtar Gates and it's looking good for you.

War Elephants, often in combination of Zues, Phalanx and Hero is very deadly. Not only for killing the enemy army, but also taking down whatever building you want. Can even go for the Coliseum on the enemies team! Counter: Not only is Priests an awesome counter to Elephants, but this is one of the few times where wings can really help out by making them on their own. Wings usually have lots of temples as well because they need to temple walls, sea etc. Priests won't work if they get a forward university , but Elephants true power isn't against walls but clumped up army. And by getting Priests the Elephant player won't be able to do any good if he runs in to your base.

Catapult and/or Siege Tower is a great way to get down or get pass walls. Catapult doesn't need many shots to take down a temple, and if you do it quickly it can really take the enemy off guard. Siege Tower doesn't look scary.. "Oh no.. 8 Phalanx got in" they might think, but these also take down temples very quickly, and boom the earthquake is on! Counter: For Catapult there's really no other counter early on than making Catapults of your own. If you're behind and can't get Catapults, make a ton of walls/temples to buy you some time until Catapults are available. Against Siege Tower a simple double wall saves the day.

Barbarians, often combined with Zues and a plague is very annoying. Unfortunately this is super common to do, and everyone pretty much knows about it so it's very rare you can get in. Counter: Wall those damn woods!

Trebuchets with Pikemen/Hero/Zeus is also a great push, but only if done very early. Ideally this push should start before you even reach Middle. Getting into his base right when the Pikemen upgrade is available is when this push is at it's strongest. If you're going Middle, and then decide that "maybe I should attack", it's likely going to be so slow that the enemy can get to Renaissance with Arquebus, and completely shut it down. Counter: Same strategy as against Catapult, make some of your own or if you can't mass walls up until you can.

Bombards is pretty much always a good investment. If you get them first and are able to push, chances are you can get pretty far. Counter: If your team is behind and the enemy is getting through your wall get some stables up and get Cataphracts. Remember to get those nice gun armor upgrades which will really help out against enemy Musketeers, and slow down the bombards push which hopefully will buy your pocket enough time to get Bombards of his own.

From Imperial and onward You'll basically be fighting constantly. First one to Industrial gets an advantage with balloon which might help, then there's the race to WW1 for the Artillery upgrade. Making tanks is a good idea unless the enemy has a lot of towers up in front, and if enemy is going tanks.. You guessed it: Get some towers up in front :D

WW2 is the age where Airplanes are really starting to come into play. To make your bomber push as strong as possible you should already start upgrading your bombers in WW1. (Get one bomber, upgrade it max, go WW2, while going WW2 you get more bombers). Once you get into ww2 you get the bomber upgrades as fast as possible, and once the upgrades are all done (so the fuel tank is full) you push. This is the most effective way to take out enemy wonders by a mile. Counter: Do exactly the same technique as with Bombers, but instead you're upgrading Fighter in WW1 and so on. Of course this counter is a lot better if you have library or a balloon over his airports so you have full control when he sends the attack and where.

Gun Ship Helicopter is a great way to eco kill your opponent with barely any effort put into it. Get like 5-6 Gun Ships, send them out to eco kill enemy mines. While they are going you get 2 attack upgrades on them. This is specially effective if your opponents didn't get the citizen HP boost upgrades from Hospital. Counter: Have a few fighters up, or get some AA's around your base. They will come in handy later on anyway.

Transport Helicopter can be used in many ways. Howitzer drop is probably the most feared one. Generally if the enemy doesn't spot the Helicopter before it drops the Howitzer Cannons, you'll get at least one wonder down. If they don't have anything ready to defend against it, you might even get all the wonders he has, and a couple of Capitols. Counter: Spot the helicopter and kill it before it lands anything is the ideal way to shut it down. Having some artillery close by can kill those Cannons fairly quickly as well. If you're already in Digital just having Apollos close to the wonders and a couple of Tempests will shut it down really easily. And to make it clear, I'm talking about the Resonator ability from Tempests. I remember I used Ares against teleported Cannons in Space Age games, so they work also as a counter if they are really dropping a lot of them :lol:
There's a lot of other things you can drop as well, 20 M1 tanks and a hero for example.. Be creative.

Hyperion, normally to take out AA's and generally harass the enemy and make them mad. Same as with Gun Ship Helicopters, these are specially effective in case the enemy has forgotten to get the Citizen HP Boost from Hospital. Wall the sea, and the mountains so Hyperions can't get in. If it's very difficult just make tons of towers all over. Resonator from Tempests are also great against clumped up Hyperions.

Nukes, preferably mixed in with some regular bombers to tank the damage is something a pocket should really aim for when it's getting really really late in the game. Couple of good Nuke hits on his Colossus Artillery can give you the advantage you need to start expanding forward. Counter: Tempest's Anti-Matter Storm constantly is your safest bet. Fighters work great here as well, but AA's aren't really gonna do anything until it's too late.

I'm really running out of ideas now since the only thing I can think of at the moment is Tridents. Oh well, if it's really late in the game, and you're not able to get passed in any way. Making tons of tridents for constant damage while using nukes on sea walls and so on can help you succeed and eventually win the game. If it's gotten this late and you've tried all pushes I've talked about in this post, then congratulations. You've had a hell of a game! Counter: Hyperions work here, but ideally get some Sea Kings and take them down!

HOOOOLY shit this post got longer than expected. Oh well, hope someone can find the time to read it all! haha
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