p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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-- WARNING --
This guide has become outdated now that I've learnt some new things. You should still use it because it's better than watever the fuck you're doing.
-- --

While you may not ever be good, you can always be better than you were yesterday. Which is what you should be doing with your ee skills (as well as any other facet of life).

While I'm not the best player, I am able to defeat the best, so here's a guide around how to do just that.

Jossos's guide to p2s AOC

Your civ MUST have the following:

Hunt/forage
Sword: Attack, Cost reduction, Speed and Hit Points
Building Cost reduction (If you're a good player, you could do without this)

Either Expansionism or Pathfinding (Or you can use other powers if you want, but they suck)

-----------------------------------------------
HOW TO BE AWESOME:
-----------------------------------------------

As soon as the game starts Press H and then C really fast, and with your 20 cits make 2 barracks (yes you will lose 60 wood. deal with it) Pick your 1v1 civ with lightning speed, and return to the game fast.

--- Practice having all this done before your barracks are actually complete so you know you're fast enough ---

click capitol, rally to wood, SHIFT C C (To que up 10 additional cits - check your food is 250 to make sure). Now memorize this routine and do it over and over again until it's 2nd nature.

2nd nature now? Youre ready to master the next part. Explore your cits, ctrl 1, then make 4 clubmen, and rally those barracks to the opposite side of the map.

YOUR FIRST CIT YOU CREATED SHOULD JUST POP OUT ABOUT NOW!

get that cit to make 2 houses not far away.

Thats right. None of this fucking house walling business. 2 Houses right off the bat. We got no time for your fancy bases. In fact a good base is a cluttered, sloppy base, so buildings nice n close are good.

Keep exploring until you find your 2 irons. Don't have 2 irons? Drop. Otherwise follow this next step:

TOWER PLACEMENT: select your cits, and place a tower near your most vulnerable iron. Next, see how vulnerable your other iron is. Select the closest amount of cits and tower that too.

That's your anti - rush strategy. 2 houses and 2 Towers up fast as lightning. Once those are up, 12 iron miners. Use the other 8, ctrl 1 to make sure u dont select those guys again, and tower your hunt. Also get ur other houses up now. If that faggot enemy of yours is giving you trouble, make sure you're attacking him. This is the best way to learn micro. just run cits that are in danger, but try to keep as many of them working as possible. You're gonna fucking suck at first, but if you keep doing this, you will be awesome at attacking and defending. Just go through that frustration process, because it means you're learning correctly. As I was saying, tower your hunt, or atleast make sure it's defendable. If you have fended off enemy clubs, you can just build your remaining buildings with 1 cit. Hunt those animals!!!

"But Jashwa," You say. "Don't I fill up forages first? It's wat i always do!"

NO YOU FUCKING MORON STOP THAT SHIT

Too many shitty players go to forages first. I'd like to inject the idea that this is fucking retarded. Hunt first. It will keep your clubs coming, and it's 1.5x faster food gathering rate. It also means your wood cutters can get you more of that delicious wood for tc's/settlements, houses and maybe even a temple (I would recommend 6 houses over a temple in 1v1/2v2, unless your scout reveals the intent of pro rushing... you did send your first 4 clubs didn't you? If not restart this guide).

Lastly - CLUBS COST FOOD TOO. KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN YOU ATTACK.

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The unpredictable world of 1v1
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1v1 is for the most hardcore of hardcore. Confidence in 1v1 drastically improves your micro and makes you an independent player. If you are looking to become great, find someone better than you and 1v1 them over and over again until you win. This will make you SOOOOO much better. (I think I beat Earth on EEC by my 100th 1v1 against him. Yes it took a long time but I did it. I've also knocked out a lot of the best players by vsing them over and over as well, such as baron, fire, and so on).

I should also note, 1v1 and 2v2, you should be using the exact same civs and the same strategies.

Ok here we go:


Club vs Club non-pf

You can win with just 1 herd. Yes you heard me right. You don't need those two extra herds to win. They help, but they aren't vital. In this kind of game, try to scout around early on. You shouldn't need a dog for this.

Make sure you attack a lot, and try to preserve your clubs as much as possible. Scouting information is so important to have on your enemy, and it lets you know where he is most vulnerable. It's really about getting a feel for the game. Sometimes you gotta defend, other times you will want to just harass your enemy heaps.

--NOTE--

You don't have to really kill cits to win. If you can keep them running around YOU WILL WIN. The only advantage and intent of attacks, is to put some hold on enemy's economy. I have won so many games, just running my first 4 clubs around having the enemy try and kill them with cits. You want to waste a lot of your enemy's time. If you can kill cits though, even better, but it isn't necessary. Just be as annoying as possible

--end note--

Now as we were saying, you should try to gauge your enemy's army as you two continue to attack each other. Honestly there is no forumula for this, you just have to get very good at micro. When you have your irons, forages and hunts filled up, and have something like 10 wood cutters, send 6 of those wood cutters to a stone mine. If you feel you can win with more clubs, get a 3rd iron mine instead, and support with more barracks (3-4 barracks to keep club upkeep if you do this). Most commonly, you will find yourself going for the stone mine. If it's a vulnerable mine, just drop like 3 clubs near it. These guys wont save your cits, but you can just group speed them back to home.

Lots of wood is good. Tc walling is awesome for survival, but not necessary. You pretty much have to gauge your situation.

HOUSES > TOWERS

I cannot stress this enough. If you're having problems with your stone mine because it's out of moral range, but find you have 150+ stone, dont waste it on a tower. build 4 houses around that mine and park a bunch of clubs near it. Too many noobs think towers are awesome, but they aren't. Moral is what saves your ass. I'll get into late game a little further on.

Expan vs Pathfinding

Pathfinding seems to have the advantage in 1v1, however, it's nothing a good turtle can't hold off If you have expansionism. You can follow the previous guide and play the same way, however there is a little more you need to do which will take away from your offense.

Drop clubs near your cits. 3-5 clubs +1 tower + 4-6 moral can stave off any attack. Enemy clubs are more likely to hit your clubmen and not your cits (which is what you want) and will either suffer major losses, or just run away (either way it works in our favour).

vs Spears

If you're vsing someone who is going spears, you can win - in fact you really should win. Here's what you do:

Attack vigorously. Again i have to stress making your clubs survive is important, and cits running around is just fine. You don't need to kill to hurt his eco.

You don't have to worry about being attacked for the first 10-15 f11, which means u can probably make more cits than you usually would. The goal here is to either get 3-4 barracks with like 3 iron mines and pumping out insane amounts of clubmen, Or THE BETTER STRATEGY grab the two stone mines early, and tower up.

Towers eat up spears like nobodies business. You need to remember that your enemy is playing with 1122 less food, so you have a good chance to smother the map with your Expansion, or harass constantly with pathfinding (Whatever your preference).

You can usually win just by harassing cits on his outter mines and hunts, since he won't have enough troops early on to fend you off, just run around and scare them away, and land some kills if you can.

A little blurb about attacking

If your enemy has a lot of clubs in his base, throw groups of about 2-4 clubs EVERYWHERE and micro like hell. Send clubs who are being follow by his clubs away, use other clubs to hit his cits to get them off mines, and just cause a mess. HOWEVER if you severely outnumber your enemy, attack with a big group, and smash the skulls if his cits in large fast hits, running out when his cits retreat to his army.

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The predictable world of 4v4
-----------------------------------------------

in 4v4, if you suck, you will be put with better players, and if you're good, you will be put with shittier players. Either way, 4v4 is not a place to learn to micro or learn new strategies simply because your shittiness will be balanced out by the teams. Nonetheless, what you CAN learn from 4v4 that you can't really learn from 1v1 is booming.

I should also note, everything written here can apply to any other category as well. Just keep that in mind.

Let's get to it.

Wing - club vs club

Instead of 6 houses, make 4 houses and use that early wood from the above strat to make a temple by about 6-10 f11.

As wing, you will probably get hit a lot. Take what you have learnt from 1v1, and just keep at it. Rushing, defending. You won't be knockin' any players out, and that's not the goal here. The goal here is to harass and kill cits. in 4v4, there's a lot more emphasis in killing cits than harassing, simply because your time is needed elsewhere, so that kinda micro will just take too much out of your game.

try to hit your enemy wing, and his pocket. Find sweet spots for killing cits, and throw clubs all over the place. This is really about killing enemy cits, no matter who they belong to, while preserving yourself all the way through. Not much else can be said that hasn't been said. Just preserve your army as much as you can, regularly visit your enemy's bases to see if they are making prophets, advancing to stone age, or even just knowing how much hunters they have, if they're on a 3rd iron or stone mines. Everything helps. pack it all in your brain and play accordingly.

Pocket - club

I'll get back to wing strategies in a moment. When you're clubbing in pocket, you will play depending on your civ, and there's really only 2 strategies here. If your civ does not have pop cap, then you need a 3rd iron and 3-4 barracks, and just mass like crazy. The only reason you would play pocket without pop cap is with the intention of causing mayhem in pre. If you aren't getting 3-4 rax's and 3rd iron idk wtf you are doing. stop it.

(I almost NEVER play without pop cap, unless I'm doing the above strategy)

With pop cap, you will probably go with the early stone route apart from the 3rd iron, but nothing is stopping you from doing the 3rd iron. That can still work. Make sure you attack a LOT.


What a pocket should be doing

I often see pockets going in to rescue their wing when they see them getting doubled. I want people to understand that this is foolish. You should really be attacking the two you and your ally oppose, as well as the other pocket. When I play, I rarely help out my wing, unless it's really necessary, which is usually never. Often my allies see my army leaving my base, thinking I'm on the way to help them, which in actual fact I'm on my way to kill the enemy.

I should probably give a reason why attacking is better than saving your ally. When you attack consistently, with a good sized army, your enemies have to keep part of their army in reserve to stay safe. You instill fear into them, and for good reason, because if they don't have that reserve, it's opportunity for a lot of kills. So when you play like this, suddenly, those doubles are only half the size as they would be, if you were not attacking. Now part of your enemy's army has to stay at home. Now being doubled isn't such a bad thing since their army sizes are drastically smaller. This is important. I get so annoyed when I get attacked, and 5 minutes later my pocket comes to the rescue. STOP THAT SHIT.

TOWERS

I'll write up this section if people request it, but I think I'm the only one that does Tower strats, so it's not so important I guess (Awesomely powerful strat tho).

I'd like to say Towers are only doable in 4v4.

BOOMING

This section can also apply to 1v1.

The main message I want to convey though this section is STOP FUCKING ADVANCING TO STONE AGE YOU RETARD.

I see so many people go stone age. fucking stop it. The ONLY reason to start trying for copper is if YOU CAN'T KILL ANY MORE CITS. That's the only reason. There is no other excuse.

So here's what you do:

Wait until you have 2000 food and 500 gold to advance to Stone. More cits is better, but this is just circumstantial. get as many hunters as you can. wiping out your herds right now is ok. Once you hit stone, make 2 buildings as fast as you can, and go copper. That's it. Not hanging around in stone age for longer than 5 minutes. There's no reason to.

I cannot stress how stupid going to stone age is without the intention of immediately clicking copper. I have won countless games from enemy's going stone age, and lost many more from allies doing the same thing. Attacks succeed that would not succeed if they used that 1122 food for cits and clubs.

So please. Don't go Stone age.

ANOTHER REASON NOT GOING STONE IS AWESOME is that your enemy will underestimate you. This is a real mindfuck strat, and suddenly being copper will scare the fuck out of them. It's very advantagous because your sudden advance to copper would not be anticipated, and it will probably win you the game a lot of times.

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Late game (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4)
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It's kinda hard to describe what to do Copper and onwards since it's so circumstantial.

Ok so You have hit Copper! Good work! But the fight is not won yet. IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT get a hero. IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT get a Zeus. WALL WALL WALL. It's important at this stage to get greedy. Wall mines you think you may not use. Any mines you wall off, your enemy will be deprived. Walling is so important.

With your maces, go harass your enemy. While you do this, build up your economy. We want lots of citizens, because the goal here is to get 8 farms and 4 gold/iron at the MINIMUM. you can get to bronze with less than these but after bronze, get your 4 metals and 8 farms. Remember these are minimum, so anything beyond this is going to give you a faster boom.

1V1 --- Eco Management

in 1v1, keep making cits and farms. 16 farms is good. 20 is better. 24 is starting to get ridiculous.

Be sure to run your cits away when enemy attacks you, and wall wall wall. This will save you much heartache. Also harassing enemy farms is very advantagous.

Do not pop granaries unless you really have to. it only gives you a 25% bonus. Just make more farms. Fill all the mines you have, and try to grab more by any means necessary.

4v4---Eco Management

Because of the population limit, it's best just to go with 4 of each metal and 8-12 farms. 5 of each metal will need serious food support to pop them to 50 (which should be done well before ww1). Mostly same as above, however it's not so absurd to pop your farms now, and I even recommend it if you really want to invest in good amounts of food later.

Bronze to Space

Bronze is a magical age, partially because of siege, but mainly because of ELEPHANTS. WAR ELEPHANTS will FUCK SHIT UP. THIS FUCKERS HAVE AOE ATTACK, AND THEY EAT UP ARMIES LIKE NOBODIES BUSINESS.

If everyone else is around bronze or lower, get some elephants in with your army. Upgrade HP twice, ATTACK twice and SHOCK ARMOR TWICE. you can group speed them with your army, so no need to upgrade speed. Some siege helps too, but with elephants and swords and a hero and maybe a zeus, you can really go and cause large amounts of mayhem. Go and knock out any wonders you can, and/or eat up some yummy cits. More than likely, you will be hitting their farmers.knock out those farms too. They take seconds to destroy and cost 40 wood each (something like that). 10 farms = 400 Wood Your enemy has to replace. 20 farms is fucking 800 wood. That's half a wonder there. skip the granaries tho.

Dark age is like another stone age. It doesn't offer anything particularly useful, and you just want to get to middle for stronger swords and better catapults if you're using them. Rennaisance, just get guns and hammer your enemy hard. If you're against a rennaisance person, and you're like in dark age or something, It could be wise, if you're facing some serious attacks, to cancel that Middle upgrade, get some stables and pump out some cataphracts. Upgrade HP ATTACK AND GUN ARMOR and these guys will save your entire team (If you're in a team).

Bombards in Imperial are helpful, but not vital.

Bombers in ww2 rock the house. get a bunch of these bad boys and go wonder hunting, preferably hitting any coliseums you see.

If you can get to space age, that really helps since you can now pop your farms with all those cits, freeing up all that population (if you're in a team game). Make Armies of ZeusII's, mixed with tanks, infantry and siege, and just fill your population with these. You may get harassed by bombers, but keep your eco strong, and continue pumping out this mix of units. Spread yourself thin so bombers do less damage, and make some AA, either with cits or Mobile AA. Artillary/Cannons are awesome to have with that army to take down buildings quickly. Your income should be pretty awesome right about now, so any dead units should be replaceable in seconds.

And the rest is gravy. I'm not really the best person to talk to about late game tactices ww1 and beyond, but these tactics I have found work wonders.

-----------------------------------------------
And that's it
-----------------------------------------------

Any other strategies are a version of what I've done here. I may or may not add to this guide. The purpose of writing this was mainly to make some of the shittier players better, so that we can have better games. A lot of AOC players could be better, but simply are not. I really hope this helps improve a lot of people's skill.

To improve, you really want to find good players who are willing to 1v1 you dozens of times. Each time you should be getting a little better, and having fights you haven't had before. Don't fight someone who is way out of your league, but someone who you think if you try hard enough, you can really beat, and work your way up. It can be done and it should be done.

Thakns for read!

-Jossos
Last edited by Oldspice on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:48 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

Post by Arntzen »

Nice post Jossos.
Oldspice wrote: Either Expansionism or Pathfinding (Or you can use other powers if you want, but they suck)
What about NO powers? I often find CCR to be A LOT more helpful than expansionism. Just wanted to hear your thoughts about this.


Also about "using hunt before forage". If there is something I've seen WAY to much is people overeating. at f11 10 their hippos+goats (for example) are all gone. Also specially in the start of the game you are most vulnerable and when you are most active doing other stuff. Keeping an eye on the hunters (so they don't kill the last hippo/goat/giraffe etc etc) is maybe to much to ask for the people who is learning.

How is 2000 idle food better than actually using them? I get your point of not staying in stone age for 30minutes (unless you actually are going towers). But 5-10 isn't that bad IMO. I think a good tip would be: Before going stone get 2nd or 3rd gold mine.

Last note, siege in bronze is overrated (on plains). IMO get Elephants. Period.
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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

Post by Oldspice »

Kazter wrote:Nice post Jossos.
Oldspice wrote: Either Expansionism or Pathfinding (Or you can use other powers if you want, but they suck)
What about NO powers? I often find CCR to be A LOT more helpful than expansionism. Just wanted to hear your thoughts about this.


Also about "using hunt before forage". If there is something I've seen WAY to much is people overeating. at f11 10 their hippos+goats (for example) are all gone. Also specially in the start of the game you are most vulnerable and when you are most active doing other stuff. Keeping an eye on the hunters (so they don't kill the last hippo/goat/giraffe etc etc) is maybe to much to ask for the people who is learning.

How is 2000 idle food better than actually using them? I get your point of not staying in stone age for 30minutes (unless you actually are going towers). But 5-10 isn't that bad IMO. I think a good tip would be: Before going stone get 2nd or 3rd gold mine.

Last note, siege in bronze is overrated (on plains). IMO get Elephants. Period.
With 8 cits you shouldnt be killin ur hunts...

with 2k idle food, you can pump out emergency clubs if anything bad happens, and as well, copper is not something your enemy will anticipate. They will underestimate you. You can get to copper with just 1 gold just fine.

Also CCR is retarded

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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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Oldspice wrote: With 8 cits you shouldn't be killing your hunts...
Ehm... No. With 8 citizens on hunt you you will have killed the hippos in 2 minutes and the second hunt will be gone in about 6-7 minutes. If I remember correctly 8 Citizens on hunt is 1 giraffe/goat. the time it takes to gather 15 food is A LOT faster than the time it takes for the hunt to breed.
Oldspice wrote: with 2k idle food, you can pump out emergency clubs if anything bad happens, and as well, copper is not something your enemy will anticipate. They will underestimate you.
I don't know man. I like to spend my shit. Either go for stone-copper or spend the resources on other stuff. 2000 food saved up sounds to me like a very beginner-ish way to play.
Oldspice wrote:You can get to copper with just 1 gold just fine.
Again I feel like you're saying that it's smart to spend an hour on saving up resources. I'd spend those 6 citizens on other stuff that I actually need then put them on a 1hour plan. "These citizens are going to get 844 gold alone". I think the economy would be a lot better if you spent them on wood/food/stone/iron instead (also only getting the gold needed for prophets if you're planing on making them). And at around 35-50 F11 you send 18 citizens to gold for a more effective economy.
Oldspice wrote:Also CCR is retarded
Maybe my fault for saying "want to hear your thoughts on..." What I should have said is: WHY NOT no powers? WHY do you think CCR is bad? HOW is expansionism better then CCR etc etc.
And while we're at it. What about a proper BTD civilization?
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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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If hunt is low just take them off... it's not hard.

Please justify why Stone age is so helpful. 15% stone mining? the better option is to just surprise your enemy. It helps a lot. dont take my advice if u want to continue being a stupid noob.

6 cits on gold will haul up ur 844 gold just fine. a 2nd gold mine helps if u mine it too late, but its not that much.

Expansionism is just too powerful. cit cost reduction helps if u wanna boom early. which you don't do in aoc unless u want to lose.

dont use club btd.

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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

Post by Arntzen »

Oldspice wrote:If hunt is low just take them off... it's not hard.
My point was, in start where you have the most to do (building up stuff, scouting the map, saving citizens from the 4 clubs enemy sent and so on) then sending 8 to hunt will in many players cases end up biting them in the back because of overeating. This is at the time of the game where hunting is the hardest. Not to mention that your hunt count is the lowest.
Oldspice wrote:Please justify why Stone age is so helpful. 15% stone mining? the better option is to just surprise your enemy. It helps a lot.
Finally a proper statement towards this 2000 food save up idea. I guess you got a point, surprising might be a good idea.
Oldspice wrote:6 cits on gold will haul up ur 844 gold just fine. a 2nd gold mine helps if u mine it too late, but its not that much.
When do you start 6 on gold? At what f11?
Oldspice wrote:Expansionism is just too powerful. cit cost reduction helps if u wanna boom early. which you don't do in aoc unless u want to lose.
It's to powerful because?
The way I see it, expansionism helps for morale and when you get into copper and actually get food income enough to use this power. Of course it helps on stone and gold gathering too, but this IMO isn't that important.
CCR civilization have hunting and iron gathering, so it's not really that slow. BUT you do have to make at least one town center to cover up your base with proper morale. I agree this sets you back, but in my experience you take that "loss" quite fast back because of cheaper citizens. Think about it, for every 4 citizen an expansionism civilization can afford, you as CCR gets 5. Also citizens is something you make throughout the whole game (at least until you have a proper amount of gold/iron capitols filled with 47 in them).
As you may realize, I'm still not quite satisfied on your answer about expansionism and CCR civilizations.
Oldspice wrote:dont use club btd.
Why? This civilization is being used and has been used by the best p2n players as far as I know. So please, can you elaborate a little further?
Oldspice wrote:dont take my advice if u want to continue being a stupid noob.
Let's say I'm a stupid noob. I've come here on this forum and I see a guide for p2s, that you have made. I read it all and I'm still curious about some things that I find odd. Since you are the guide maker, I ask you because I want to learn even more, which is the point of this guide am I right?
Then stop offending me, or any other asking for your advice for !@#$ sake.
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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

Post by Oldspice »

Yo Kaz, who's the stronger p2s player, me or you?

The guide I have written should be treated as scripture.

Everything u have written is stupid. go away.

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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

Post by Oldspice »

OK im gonna answer ur stuff

Managing hunt should be something you do a lot, since its pre. Taking ppl off and on to keep them alive should be 2nd nature.

When you start gold mining and how many gold miners is totally circumstantial, so it's really a "do what you feel like" topic.

Ok, your ccr question is actually legitimate.
This guide is more aimed at the standard, best tactics concocted in p2s. As players get better and better, they would heed the advice of this guide less and less, and do whatever. and I hope they do. But I dont want shitty players using ccr like they know the game better than anyone. I want them understanding the best tactics, so that when they do do something like ccr and btd they are aware of what they are losing, and what forces they are up against which they may not be able to repel.

I get a lot of noobs refusing to take my advice. Simple things like using a normal expan civ, or build order. They aren't really interested in taking the advice, and are more worried about maintaining their current play style. They are a lost cause and quite frankly you seem to be showing signs of this kind of mentality.

For example:
Fred
Manni
Trunk Monkey

There are many others, but these are the worst cases.

Hope that answers your questions. Me being nasty is nothing personal, so I hope you don't take it as such.

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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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You seem to not be getting the point here. I want you to tell me WHY CCR isn't good and WHY expansionism and pathfinding are superior to CCR. You have already told me and everyone else reading this that you think there isn't any other good strategy that can be used other than pathfinding and expansionism. I'm simply questioning this because I know players like bones and fire used civilizations without powers quite often.

You being nasty is really uncalled for personal or not.
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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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I can assure you, fire and bones do NOT use powerless civilisations when they are against, let's say elite or baron or myself. It's not winnable because it's inferior

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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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Seriously, answer my question or don't answer at all.
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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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Pathfinding lets you walk through trees, Expansionism lets you make instant tc's. How is saving 10 food from cits better than these?

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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

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You didn't answer my question. I give up. Apparently you are Bill O'Rielly 2.0 or something.
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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

Post by Ghost »

Any experienced player knows that cit cost reduction is about worthless on standard high, no matter what strategy you're using. Even P2N islands players don't use it that much any more. It's really not worth explaining.
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Arntzen
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Re: p2s Strategy - by Jossos

Post by Arntzen »

Ghost wrote:Any experienced player knows that cit cost reduction is about worthless on standard high, no matter what strategy you're using. Even P2N islands players don't use it that much any more. It's really not worth explaining.
CCR is the most common p2n 1v1 civilization in EEC. It's most common on p2n pocket civilizations AND its ALWAYS used in p2n island games. Try fight a wing who's ww1 at F11 1.15-1.20 without CCR.

Please don't throw the "any experienced player knows that... So if you don't know this you are a noob". CCR is a VERY valid strategy on P2N EEC this is why I'm asking him on why it isn't on AOC.

Neither of you seem to be able to give me a proper answer. This is all I'm asking for.
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