MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

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ak_47
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MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by ak_47 »

Basic mid dm civ for no rules/ no R/S
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sword + archers.GIF

taco
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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by taco »

thats the basic mid dm civ huh? looks like it would get destroyed by any number of combinations including what i considered the basic mid dm civ being cata lbs xbows, few persians. from my experiences mid dm players use alot of cata's in thier games. and ur civ is incredibly weak towards them and xbows and even knights to an extent, how many mid dm combos dont use these 3 units? not that many

just wondering is cit speed that big of a deal in mid dm?

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by P-51 »

Its a versatile wing civ. Also cit speed is good because it helps you finish building before the other person which is very important on wing.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by taco »

u may be right however i c it as a waste of points, the cit spd that is, if u condense ur base, the gain from it is far less then if u put it on a wild card unit. say ca att or range for help against the persians.

it may be virsitile, but its also incredibly weak in terms of unit combos, if this was no rules it would probobly be a better civ then no r/s because of the extra empathies on cata and xbows.

im not a mid dm player, nor was i a big mid dm player at any point when i played ee, however i just dont c this civ doing that well in a game, i could b wrong and it might b that this is a fantastic civ, in that case im sorry, but i dont think that will be the case.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by ak_47 »

Seriously,taco again with the useless comment "this civ loses against this civ, so it sucks"
I already know that, every experienced mid dm player knows that.......
Instead of putting down every civ i post on these forums, you should really examine your knowledge.
Since this civ is only as good as the player who uses it.


So now let start with thanking taco for commenting, it gives me the chance to try explaining the strong points of this civ :
This is mainly used against civs that are cavalry based.
Such an example is cavalry archers/persians + sword units(catapraches/infantry swords) or knight/sword civs.
The reason why it "might have a slight advantage over cavalry" is because in 300+ pop games.
You can mass longbows fast, cheap,they have longer range then cavalry archers/persians and you have 2 footunit vs 1 cavalry unit. So in higher pop games footunit army mass is bigger then cavalry mass, and since longbows become amazingly effective in larger masses, they are the ideal unit for 1v1s, and for instant hero sniping.
Also Another combo that this civ beats in theory,is Sword + treb civ.(Just mass crossbows instead of longbows and hit n run until the enemy runs out of swords, then charge your swords at his trebs, gg.)

Now since taco brought up the weak point of sword/lb/crossbow combo, ill try to explain that as well:

The main reason why it loses against cats+longbows/crossbows, is because inf sword/lb/crossbow combo is only based on footunits.
The cata /lb/crossbow mix, has a cavalry melee unit called catapraches, who got more arrow armour and speed. Then infantry swords, who got less arrow mitigation damage(arrow armour) and move much slower.
So catapraches are superior against arrow dmg, which makes them better meat shields/faster distraction targets against incoming ranged attacks from crossbows/lb(the only ranged unit that catapraches are weak against is persians, since they throw lances and not arrows).
Infantry swords on the other hand droop like flies against crossbows, and they dont survive that well against large masses of longbows. Basicly the cata user only needs to micro his catapraches and make sure the enemy ranged units only hits his catapraches to surely win the fight in paper.

But!, thats only theory.
Remember! if the cata/lb/crossbow, player is sloppy with his playing,
the sword/lb/crossbow user will win, if he controls his army better.

so again, these civs is only as good as the player who uses it.

Any civ can beat this civ in theory/game and vice versa.
But the factor where it really counts, is only in the players cabability in making the best use out of his units.

A also agree with you taco, that speed on cits might be useless, but its also useless to put range on cavalry ranged if your intent is to build cavalry archers lol.... why build ca when you already got longbows.
Maybe you thought that ca will be good countering crossbows, but its futile and waste of resources.
If the enemy is good he will have longbows mixed with crossbows. So even if you make ca, your army will die faster since they lack hp, and attack. If this was sh or maybe if your intent was to build persians, i could maybe agree with you, but in dm, what you want to build is the units that you've invested most civ points on, the rest depends on army control.

Anyways, im not angry at you taco, im sorry if this post gives that kind of vibe :)

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by taco »

no i did mean ca range or attack, and it wasnt intended for ca, it was intended for persians, as cata are ur biggest problem, u only build things u have the most points in? well i can c no use in that at all, basicly choose a civ, hope for the best, there is no skill in that. ur civ doesnt have btd if ur massing swords u kinda need it even in dm since half ur civ is based on wood and gold, u would want to be conserving it for your army instead of 10 extra rax's. u may not like my opinion, however i would argue my middle experience is far greater then yours, not that many ppl on these days would match it, omega, bin being exceptions coming to mind.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by LacRimoSa »

don't even start arguing with taco, ak_47. His superior mid skills own every argument.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by ak_47 »

no i did mean ca range or attack, and it wasnt intended for ca, it was intended for persians, as cata are ur biggest problem, u only build things u have the most points in? well i can c no use in that at all, basicly choose a civ, hope for the best, there is no skill in that. ur civ doesnt have btd if ur massing swords u kinda need it even in dm since half ur civ is based on wood and gold, u would want to be conserving it for your army instead of 10 extra rax's.

Taco your middle experience, idc if its greater, your statement contradicts your "so called experience" to begin with.
why make persians against a user who got cata + lb?, didin't you understand the part where lb have greater range ? persians will get raped .... on point.A good cata/lb/crossbow user, will just move his cata vertically to lure out your persians towards his longbows, and they will just die in 1-2 seconds, since persians do not have good arrow mitigation dmg. If you played mid dm, you will know its better to just stick with the civ, and try to out micro your opponent.
With this civ you can counter most other units, since lb kills ca,persians,knights,pikes,piliums etc. crossbows kill all footunits. sword are good melee units to have to protect the archers against ca,Other sword units,lb, etc.
this civ all in all can counter alot of combos, but it all depends on how you play.
don't even start arguing with taco, ak_47. His superior mid skills own every argument.
That's the most ignorant comment i've ever heard. lacrimosa, if you wanna comment and reinforce tacos statement, do it when you actually got evidence on his "so called skills".

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by ak_47 »

and pls do understand im not promoting this civ to be the best civ in no R/S, its just a very old school combo, in no rules.
i only posted this civ because a player asked me to post it on the forums.
im just sad that players like taco and lacri try to make me look, like i dont know that this civ loses to cata+lb/xbow combo lol.... like seriously dude ? wtf.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by LacRimoSa »

however i would argue my middle experience is far greater then yours
That's no relevant argument and just shows what a... anyway hf.

And ak_47, my comment wasn't aimed at u, since I never played mid dm and therefore aren't in the position to judge in that case.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by ak_47 »

don't even start arguing with taco, ak_47. His superior mid skills own every argument.
lacri what did you mean with that comment ?
to me it sounded like" hey ak_47 stfu, taco is right because he got more skills."

That's no relevant argument and just shows what a... anyway hf.

And ak_47, my comment wasn't aimed at u, since I never played mid dm and therefore aren't in the position to judge in that case.
And if my version of your comment is correct then Saying that his midd skills is better then mine, is not judging ?. seriously you contradict yourself lacri :) btw, taco how can your experience be better then mine when you dont even play mid dm... i do. i even played mid sh, and dont tell me you "own" me in it. since i've seen you play and i've played against you like 214327584933498529347 times... and still counting.
Anyways im not saying your a bad player.but you just dont give me no choice but to hand out the facts taco/lacri.
Last edited by ak_47 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by LacRimoSa »

oh so saying that his midd skills is better then mine, is not judging
I was refering to the whole mid dm strategy thing...

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by ak_47 »

This will be the last post i make on this thread, i've said all the stuff needed to explain for this civ and a bit more for other stuff. I hope new players find this thread a tiny bit useful regarding my perspective,p51's and tacos perspective of viewing things. And whatever we argue is just theory and im glad we do not think the same or else this world would be dry and boring.

Also wanna Say Sorry to Lacrimosa, i misunderstod your first comment :)
I'm not good at understanding sarcasm
Last edited by ak_47 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MID Dm Sword + LongBow/Crossbow

Post by taco »

alot of pointless argueing here, firstly i took what lacri said as sarcasm towards me and not urself. either way it doesnt matter.
im just using common sense here but if ur massing swords without btd u will require alot quickly yes?
the only way to do that is to mass rax's, in massing rax's which will cost minimum of 191 wood u will need quite a few to keep a good amount of swords coming, this is what i consider to b somewhat wasted wood. now as soon as ur opponent sees you only using foot units, i would bet ALOT of money regardless of xbow ups or not that they will use them, not only use them but will beat u with ease.

you are correct with lbs do kill/more range then persians and all that other obvious jazz, however u have swords blocking, and have 0 plan against the notoriously used mid dm r/s unit "cata's" in which case is where persians come in, they can just run there cata up and down and yes its not the ideal situation u want to placed with even with persians, but u have little other options and is a much better chance of surviving with persians then what u suggested of just keeping to lbs/xbows swords.

i have nothing against u posting ur civs, however i will critise and question them where i c downsides, i welcome u to do the same, as others have done to my civs, instead of getting pissed off that im questioning it try and relise that im not doing it to just b a bastard but to get an understand as to y ur doing it that way. binary has helped me in the past by critising my ca slut civ, at the time i did not agree with him and fought against his opinion however after reviewing what he said he was right and there was a more efficent civ and start i could use. this is merely what im getting at.

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