mod no rush

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Re: mod no rush

Post by Captain Nemo »

Note that if it's on aoc I'd definitely add cloacking or w/e it's called.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by BigRon »

nuclear submarines are annoying, yet they are kind of useless since you only need to have a full wall + ishtar and they can't do shit

the key to win a no rush game is to know how to defend your island and to find the right time to attack your opponent in order to hurt him as much as possible

buildings attack + range and a shitload of mobile aa with range+attack will stop any bomber attack

well you are fucked with a bad island

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Re: mod no rush

Post by Arntzen »

Omega wrote:Kazter, you're out of your league here. You're plain wrong.

You're better off making carriers, F-14s, and a few other support ships (and/or sea kings) than you are making B-2 bombers.
This might be true, but could you at least care to explain why. How are you gonna use sea aa effectively against air on these maps? I mean, when wings siege can reach over to the other island then they can hit boats there with ease. This is where pocket will use his air to help out the wing with the fight to win shore.
I have not played a lot of Mod sh f11 games on island but I've played hundreds of p2n's. They are all about winning shore and to do this wing gets siege/navi and pocket gets air.

In any case I would like to see someone beat me and Soriano on our side with a pocket going full navi...

Ps: You use regular bombers as shield so that the aa hit them instead of the nuke.

Also doubt claoking would be allowed.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Captain Nemo »

It's mod not nano. Missiles can't stop air but sea aa in mod has so much attack against air that bombers wont stand a chance. U'll still need siege to defend your isæand a little bit but if u're the one with nuke subs it's a lost cause for the other side. Trust me, 60f11 islands is not like 60f11 mod at all.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Arntzen »

Why do you keep saying its mod? I'm saying I'll be fighting with siege in the shore next to enemy island. You will be loosing your sea aa to wings siege. If you have navy behind wings base your tridents will just be hitting walls..
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Omega »

Kazter, you're like a guy arguing that Mid SH 60 F11 no rules is going to devolve into a crossbow-cataphract-pilum contest, with wings and pockets strategizing how best to mass those units in concert, and defending that sub-par strategy against clearly better strategies with weak rationalizations as to how the game works, which are seemingly predicated on bad understandings of the game, and who doesn't even understand that if the wing is making crossbows and cataphracts, the pocket should at least be making persians and not pilums, much less understanding that demonstrably better exist like sword-siege tower-crossbow-trebuchet, and coming up with reasons that don't make any sense as to why crossbow-cataphract-pilum is clearly superior.

I'm not even sure where to start in explaining how wrong you are.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Arntzen »

Pff if you can't (or refuse to) explain why I guess we'll have to 1v1 or something when I get home. Which should be a walk in the park for you, since you clearly have superior strategies, and eye opening for me with my xbow/cata/pilum-like army..
Small map large islands will most simular to wing vs wing fight I guess.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Omega »

On the effectiveness of bombers from the pocket:
- Cruisers decimate air. Like, have you ever seen how powerful cruisers are? Mod cruisers have instant direct-damage; nano cruisers have nearly instant direct damage (they're slightly worse versus nano bombers than their mod equivalent happens to be vs mod bombers due to this and a variety of other factors but that's really not pertinent).
- Anti-air buildings are strong, and can manually target the nuke you occasionally mention. It's modern, so anti-air buildings don't fire missiles that must seek the target, but instead do direct damage. People make AA buildings if they're not stupid.
- People can easily make a few fortresses, populate their citizens into said fortress, make flak halftracks, and unload them from other fortresses. Also modern, so direct damage here. This is generally overkill, unless someone has 3x cost reduction bombers or something. Since they're mobile AA, any siege bonuses will also apply to them.
- Assuming cruisers supposedly can't sit in the initial bomber path for whatever reason, they have a 8+4 range and are fairly fast. Expect them to kill all of the zero-fuel bombers on return.
- Carriers with F-14s actually aren't bad; F-14s can attack bombers, and make them die.
- In the event bombers are some real problem, people can make F-15s and get them out of airports quite rapidly using a well-known glitch; unless you're sending a lot of fighters with your bombers and the other person can't for some reason pick off your fighters first with their AA and/or just unload their F-15s intelligently, bombers are still going to get fucked up.
- Since we're talking a team game here with the pocket going bombers, it's not like there aren't *two* places where cruisers can certainly target all bombers being used to attack a wing, although admittedly one is somewhat vulnerable to prophets in one case.
- It's more difficult to avoid cruisers than you think on the attacking end of an attack, and virtually impossible on the returning end of an attack.

On the effectiveness of arty versus ships:
- Arty isn't that good versus ships unless you've hoarded it. If you hoard it like that, you're literally asking for someone with F-14s to rape it. Also, you're vulnerable to someone with a little bit of arty that's going to target yours, which any wing can do. In any case, your arty won't be maximally effective due to other arty, either because yours is getting killed, or because you continually need to retreat and reposition it to avoid it getting blown to pieces.
- Docks are like hospitals for ships. They're good, and heal ships, which have a ton of HP anyway, and which can be moved out of line of fire if they happen to be getting too damaged.

On walls being a magical shield against everything:
- Walls die very quickly if a person doesn't have an Isthar up. Isthars can be killled via various means, which is something you're already suggesting.
- Walls must be repaired to stay alive versus a constant bombardment. The other player will have artillery too, right?
- Tridents still do a lot of damage versus walls, even with an Isthar up. Battleships also do a lot of damage versus walls, even with an Isthar up.

On winning shore:
- You win shore because your opponent is dead or has otherwise epically failed.

On the argument from p2n islands games:
- p2n or p2s islands games aren't really a good representation of single-epoch mod nr 60. They're significantly different in civilization requirements (making ships a lot worse), and they also have a different evolution to combat (plus, they fairly quickly advance past modern in the event that the game is even remotely a toss-up and someone has hit modern).
- Mod SH [whatever] islands NR 60 is basically just Mod DM [whatever] islands NR 5 or 10 or something else that's low, with the only difference being that eco is very slightly better in the former case.

---

I think the most important rebuttal here is this quote from you:
Wing civ would have siege ad/range/att/hp [emphasis added]
Siege HP: the most worthless bonus ever known (OK, so it's about even with all the other worthless bonuses). Unless you're playing Middle DM, which we're not here.

I think this conclusively demonstrates you haven't thought this through much, or your experience doesn't count at all.

---

Assuming I'm ever:
1) Online
2) Reinstall EE
3) Really bored (and too annoyed with a bug or something to do something fun like work on something for a kaggle competition or project Euler) and/or drunk and alone

Then I'll take your 1v1. I will however request that to make this more representative, that we find 6 easy computers and set the map to large. Or find 4 easy computers and 2 people to play pockets.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Omega »

I feel like I probably missed a bunch of reasons in that last post, but... Whatever. Good enough for now.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Captain Nemo »

Arntzen wrote:Why do you keep saying its mod?
Cause you're clearly using your nano island experience to uncover what would work in mod.
I have not played a lot of Mod sh f11 games on island but I've played hundreds of p2n's. They are all about winning shore and to do this wing gets siege/navi and pocket gets air.
But I would agree that some siege fighting will be essential on the shore, but I believe having a bunch of tridents constantly shooting will tip the balance cause u have to be extremely fixed on keeping your walls healthy while your "autoshots" from siege will be aiming at a navi rather than the other shore.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Omega »

Also, please remember that Mod SH Islands NR 60 = Tournament, not Standard. Weaker walls, by far.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Arntzen »

Finally a reply where you're not 100% condescending without saying anything that is helpful.
Omega wrote:On the effectiveness of bombers from the pocket:
- Cruisers decimate air. Like, have you ever seen how powerful cruisers are?
My whole point is that in the shore between the two wings they will have a ton of siege/towers so the cruisers wont stay alive there. And this is exactly where air will come. Note that pocket will make airports on wings island.
Omega wrote:- Anti-air buildings are strong, and can manually target the nuke you occasionally mention.
Yes they are, but IMO you really want fighters to do the main damage against enemy bomber/nukes.
Omega wrote:- People can easily make a few fortresses, populate their citizens into said fortress, make flak halftracks, and unload them from other fortresses. Also modern, so direct damage here. This is generally overkill
I already mentioned flaks as a option in case your pocket can't defend you. Something he should do, or you need to waste iron on flaks.
Omega wrote:- Assuming cruisers supposedly can't sit in the initial bomber path for whatever reason, they have a 8+4 range and are fairly fast. Expect them to kill all of the zero-fuel bombers on return.
As I'm saying if they come for the bombers they will die.
Omega wrote:- Carriers with F-14s actually aren't bad; F-14s can attack bombers, and make them die.
We both know they suck compared to regular fighters.
Omega wrote:- In the event bombers are some real problem, people can make F-15s and get them out of airports quite rapidly using a well-known glitch; unless you're sending a lot of fighters with your bombers and the other person can't for some reason pick off your fighters first with their AA and/or just unload their F-15s intelligently, bombers are still going to get fucked up.
YES.
Omega wrote:- Since we're talking a team game here with the pocket going bombers, it's not like there aren't *two* places where cruisers can certainly target all bombers being used to attack a wing, although admittedly one is somewhat vulnerable to prophets in one case.
It's more difficult to avoid cruisers than you think on the attacking end of an attack, and virtually impossible on the returning end of an attack.
I'm really wondering if we're playing same map type/map size..
Omega wrote:On the effectiveness of arty versus ships:
I said siege. Howitzer (or w/e they are called) is also siege.
Omega wrote:- Arty isn't that good versus ships unless you've hoarded it. If you hoard it like that, you're literally asking for someone with F-14s to rape it. Also, you're vulnerable to someone with a little bit of arty that's going to target yours, which any wing can do.
In this case the artys can stand behind enemy artys range since your ships will be in the sea in middle of the islands (or somewhere else where only my artys can hit).
Omega wrote:- Docks are like hospitals for ships. They're good, and heal ships, which have a ton of HP anyway, and which can be moved out of line of fire if they happen to be getting too damaged.
This is more difficult to do than you make it sound. Boats are clumpsy as shit. Also your docs will be in range for arty and in almost every case howitzers too..
Omega wrote:On walls being a magical shield against everything
I will admit I didn't think of that walls are a lot worse on tournament, but I still think you should be able to save your wall with citz and constant remaking of walls against tridents. At least long enough for you to take advantage of winning shore.
Omega wrote:On winning shore:
- You win shore because your opponent is dead or has otherwise epically failed.
IMO winning shore is a slow prosess. Starts out with one guy loosing more docs/siege than the other and the one guy galning momentum. Here as with walls you are constantly repairing/rebuilding whatever is getting hit. Here pockets nukes can do wonders and totally shift the battle.


Omega wrote:I think the most important rebuttal here is this quote from you:
Wing civ would have siege ad/range/att/hp [emphasis added]
Siege HP: the most worthless bonus ever known (OK, so it's about even with all the other worthless bonuses). Unless you're playing Middle DM, which we're not here.
You will be surprised how much arty-shots a howitzer with hp+morale+strat hero can tank. Also this is nr 60 so you will have about 30f11 (or more) from your boom is done til the fights actually happens which gives you plenty of time to glitch many strategy heroes so you can abuse this even more. Also I'm almost certain this allows your arty to be hit once more from enemy artys. At least they do in p2n's where everyone used siege hp over siege ROF.
Omega wrote:I think this conclusively demonstrates you haven't thought this through much, or your experience doesn't count at all.
Maybe.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by Sexacutioner »

i dont really understand how this is an actuall conversation lol
the edit=
aoc i would go sas just as a random thing to do
otherwise its all fighters/bombers while trying to land mainly cits to build aa and build a frontal base <--- severe pain in the ass against a good player, but just trying to mass bomb a good player is a complete failure so i found the " you noob " strat to work best for me, then again i am just a noob in this nr bullshit lol

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Re: mod no rush

Post by Omega »

So you've got a wing that is walled, but has towers as part of the walls? This is asking to get fucked, because ships and tridents and arty tear down towers much faster than walls.

Howitzers are strong. Howitzers behind walls... Not so much. Once the walls come down, Howitzers die too fast to do all that much.

A decent number of tridents rapes a wall extremely fast anyway. Tridents area damage might not apply behind the wall, but arty area damage certainly will, if nothing else --> don't expect to repair.

I think you're really overestimating how effective your defense is going to be against anyone with a decent number of tridents, ships, and arty that is using them effectively. Much less how effective it'll be against that in concert with a pocket doing whatever else that's effective.

My point with the AA has been that your nukes will be right-clicked, after a bunch of AA is selected. They're not going to do shit.
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Re: mod no rush

Post by bosshaft »

To the last posts:
TL; DR

me, as the threadstarter just have a few words to lose:
air > navy in mod nr islands

i will fight against anyone to prove u wrong, i suggest 2vs2 on large islsnds and nr 60f11.
if nobody wants to, i just proved that i say the truth. u can discuss than for hours in this thread writing a book and watching your grammar to be correct.

mfg mujaheddin

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