Cataphracts buffed too much

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[-Ts-] Tricky
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by [-Ts-] Tricky »

Yea stone throwers in seige factory and barbarian mix

:D my bad for the wrong names lol

yea i know eis lol indy dm is goons + bombards
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Elite »

It seems to me that in a dark only game cataphracts + stone throwers would be the dominant combo - persians counter catas but they die extremely quickly to siege and they don't kill catas very quickly once the cata player has a hero. Also with their massive attack buff catas are amazing for hero killing. As far as I'm concerned they're now actually a very useful unit in middle team games if you do an exp. boom, as for liga I don't really give a shit about dark age balance because dark age liga is a shit game anyway. Its like "herp derp no settle persian keel all ur citzen doh!"

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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Elite »

Imo catas late game are better than swords as long as your wonders are walled. 21 speed and 50 attack = sword's hero is instadead.

Kazter wrote:Nino is the only one who thinks catas are good. He uses a cata/knight mix every game.
On a more serious note this cata-changes was voted on by 150+ people and I dont mind their atk+arrow armor buff. Keep in mind liga or dark-age is never played and you get cata in 1 out of 1000 p2s-games, and here for tanking vs gun.. Not vs arrow, and not for their attack.
So buffing them only effects Mid sh, where they are still not worth buying. I dont see a problem here.
However if this is a serious issue, you and your friends can unpatch and play on clean verson for middle and patch again for the other sets. To my knowledge, we wont be seeing any new patches made by Omega any time soon.

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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Arntzen »

Elite wrote:It seems to me that in a dark only game cataphracts + stone throwers would be the dominant combo - persians counter catas but they die extremely quickly to siege and they don't kill catas very quickly once the cata player has a hero. Also with their massive attack buff catas are amazing for hero killing.
I dissagree, and I will try my best to explain why.

Firstly I wud like to compare knight/bali vs cav/bali in middle to cata/stone t vs persian/stone t in dark. CA's are hard counter to knights simular to persians are hard counter to catas, so right now these two examples seems quite simular to eachother. The big main reason why you can get away with knight/bali in middle is that one or two early balistas means all the difference in the world against a cav player. Something it doesnt in dark age vs persians. Imo 1v1 this should be instant death for only this reason. To make my point even stronger I'll also mention that persians are better vs buildings/citizens then CA's are in middle.

In teamgames my team would all be making persians and haveing stone thrower range in civ. Chances for a cataplayer to get to late game (where I feel catas are the strongest) are really weak IMO.

But for arguments sake I will make some points here as well.
Late late game cata/stone thrower/hero/zeus is really really strong, I agree. But in my head it still dont beat persian/stone thrower/hero/zeus. Reason is persians (if I'm not misstaking) outrange stone thrower meaning the persianplayer can hit and run as much as he pleases. Meaning that you wont see those head on head battle as you will see in middle ages knight vs CA.
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Captain Nemo »

persian own dark age no need to debate this. a "slut" rushed persian will own catas pretty quick as they kill cits so easy. Which will force people to do CA in dark aswell eventhough they suck. Late game? What u play huge map?
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Arntzen
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Arntzen »

Elite wrote:As far as I'm concerned they're now actually a very useful unit in middle team games if you do an exp. boom
I've seen catas been used proper 1 time in a mid 4v4. Not sure if you remember this game elite but it was 8player game with mostly decent-pro players that lasted for 6hours f11 one or two years ago. You where my enemie pocket, I was wing. I think that game me and my enemie wing "died" to times each. Where we had to rebuild from 1capitol and 5-10 citz to 40rax to 1tc with 7 citz to 40rax again. Epic game with religion, use of cata/persian/rams/trebs/ST over wall and even dog rallying to enemie bases. My team eventually won the game and I think you would agree on this statement: We would not have won if you went knights or CA's. And what kept your team in the game was your superior skill compared to my pocket, not exactly the catas.

Now to my opinion of why catas are not only weak in middle, but WEAKER.
First of all in middle swords/Ca/knights/spear/siege are uppgraded, and catas are not.
Secound, I'm not sure what you will use in civ of HP or Armor, and how you would uppgrade them in game but I'm sure you would atleast use 1 uppgrade on arrow armor in game making them even weaker to persians.
This leads to weaker chance of getting to late game vs a sword+CA mix, and I'm not even considering how it would go against knights.

Overall I find catas a bad option in dark-dark tl/sh and Mid tl/sh.
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by P-51 »

I think when you have two players using cata/stone thrower and persian/stone thrower the winner is going to be whoever has a better micro, it won't always be the persian. Relying on hit and run tactis with persians is a bad idea when you can risk leaving your stone throwers exposed. Hit and run should be more effective with cata in this situation. Anyway, elephant/stone thrower will own both.

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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Captain Nemo »

why are u saying persian/stone vs cata/stone ? It wont ever go as far as late game with stone throwers etc as persians are very capable of killing siege (yet also take hits from them) and will beat the catas early on. This is for dark, as I don't think people are that likely to go persians in middle.
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Arntzen
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Arntzen »

I did say "chances for getting to late game is very weak but for arguments sake..." And then made it clear even in late game catas SUCK.
We have the same opinion tho I have to make it superclear for the ones who thinks different.

And ppl will get persians in middle if catas becomes a problem IMO.
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Elite »

Im gonna try to make this short. I don't think catas are over buffed, I think they're at a point now where they can be useful in a middle game especially in a more boom oriented game, obviously cata civ is weak vs eec style rush. However I will say knights die to CA significantly faster than catas die to persians, especially once heroes are involved, and persians have same range as stone throwers 5+3 max.

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lightnessking.
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by lightnessking. »

Even with the range being equal, de stone throwers impact won't be within 1 second, therefore allowing the persian to run far away to take none-minimum damage. (IMO)
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Captain Nemo »

nice post elite. I'd say they are useful too since, if u're not going persians they'll be pretty allright.

But I'd still say knights stand a better chance vs ca because if u add very quick bali's u can fight them off. You can't do this vs persians as they can actually shoot down bali's/stone throwers quite easy + they kill cits much faster.

Man Im gonna make a persian civ for aoc, nobody goes ca anyway! :)
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lightnessking.
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by lightnessking. »

Captain Nemo wrote:nice post elite. I'd say they are useful too since, if u're not going persians they'll be pretty allright.

But I'd still say knights stand a better chance vs ca because if u add very quick bali's u can fight them off. You can't do this vs persians as they can actually shoot down bali's/stone throwers quite easy + they kill cits much faster.

Man Im gonna make a persian civ for aoc, nobody goes ca anyway! :)
Uhm... Good AoC pockets actually DO make cav lol... Tho, alot of stupid people tend to go pocket exp-sword, imo that's just stupid.
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by Captain Nemo »

They seem more interrested in making longbows. Of course they do make trouble for persians I know, but with balli in civ it shouldn't be impossible to outmicro a longbow player. I saw absolutely make a persian boom with balli work quite well.
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lightnessking.
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Re: Cataphracts buffed too much

Post by lightnessking. »

Yes it will work but if you're fighting vs a good pocket, your enemy will make you as a first priority to kill, since in early game it's the most easiest and it helps your team more if that specific person dies.
If I as a pocket notice you're persians or knights (in wing) I tell my wing to attack to pocket, and try to do most damage on you. If you're doing persians.knight in pocket and having a sword wing, I usually assist my wing with 25% - 50% of my total cav army, while i'm attacking you (persian/knight player with the other part.

But since teamwork is a major problem in most games, you most likely have a stupid wing who doesn't know what to do lol.

PS: I'm searching for a wing/pocket player for better teamplay.
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