Digi TCstart vs TCforage (for liga nerds only)

[Arntzen]

My hypothesis: If "perfect" map (double gold iron and forage+gold/iron close to wood) normal TC is better than TC at forage.

Process:
Went into a game, quicksaved right away, took it into scenario editor and made it "perfect". Started the game two times, one time doing TC forage and one time doing normal TC start. Both games I played it as "if it was against an opponent going TC". So I populated a second settle into TC pretty early (f11 8-9 ish) on both games. Stopped the games at f11 14 and took screens. Used same civ both games here is the civ:

Great Britain without firgate upgrades

First game was normal TC:

Second game was TC at forage:

Information:
TC at forage:
2 more citizens (would have been 2 more population if I had not lost the dog in that game). This gave me slightly more wood. 10 airplanes and 3 sentinel but no upgrades on planes. 1 new airplane and 2 new sentinel was on the way. Had trouble with iron so ended up taking a third iron before second gold mine.
Normal TC:
Better gold/iron balance. Was actually getting more gold/iron than I could spend so in the end I queued up another upgrade. 10 airplanes upgraded to 6. 1 new airplane, 1 new upgrade on airplane and 2 new sentinel on the way. Forth metal was a gold mine giving a 2/2 balance.

Conclusion:
Don't really see any reason to get TC at forage to be honest. The bonus simply just > 2 more citz. Also normal TC guy's second TC will be at an iron, so no matter how long the game goes, he'll still have 1 more mine with bonus if both are playing equally.

[Omega]

TC at forage is more frequently than not a bad idea. Generally speaking, it's better than no TC in the cases where making a TC is a good play, but in those cases it's almost invariably worse (sometimes just slightly) than just making a TC on an actual mine.

I would suggest that in your normal TC case, given that you mention you had too much gold/iron at one point, that your balance was actually a bit off. You could have used some of your metal citizens differently for a period of time (read: more efficiently), and been a bit ahead of where you were, even.

[Arntzen]

TC at forage is more frequently than not a bad idea.

I have a feeling you're trying to confuse us non-english speaking users on here. Haha!

I would suggest that in your normal TC case, given that you mention you had too much gold/iron at one point, that your balance was actually a bit off. You could have used some of your metal citizens differently for a period of time (read: more efficiently), and been a bit ahead of where you were, even.

Yes, but I think I could have been a bit more efficient on the other one as well, look at gold/wood. So I think both games could have been done better. I have not memorized the builds 100% to 14 f11.

[Captain Nemo]

Pretty convincing case for the TC on double mine. My only concern is I often pop even before I know how my minefield look. If I was to TC on a mine it would be alot later than on a forage I reckon. When do u pop the mine? and the forage? Of course we play differently so I'd have to try it out myself to see how it'd work for me. Your balance was a little off in the forage TC game compared to the other of course...

Anyway I rarely do TC start, thats actually for 1v1 only or perhaps for fun booming on GR.

[Arntzen]

When you start in digi-nano do 2wood 3 forage or something in beginning instead of 5 forage or w/e you do when you forage tc start. Note: I did 2 wood 2 forage 1 explore (and if I dont see forage from beginning 2 wood 3 explore).
The balance was sick weird on the forage tc start. I only had 6 on gold the entire game but couldn't get enough iron. The wood was just a little higher. I'd say I played equally good/shit in both games. But do the same test if you want, be cool to see if your games add up same way mines did.
TCforage I pop at 1.30 and normal TC is before 2.00.

[Ghost]

I think the point Omega was getting at is that there's no value to TCing a forage other than having extra citizen production capability. TCs do not provide a foraging bonus, only a mining bonus.

Presuming you already have both settlements built, if you TC the double mine you gain either 1: excess gold/iron to spend on military or 2: the ability to pull some citizens off the mines to focus on food/wood. You don't get any advantage if you choose to TC the forage.

The only time TCing a forage is valuable is before your second settlement (on a mine) is built, you're currently whoring food sources, and you want to spend that food on additional citizens ASAP. After you TC the double mine, the forage TC ends up being a waste of 250 food unless your citizen production constantly exceeds the capability of 2 TCs (your mine TC and Capitol). I would assume if that were the case though, you'd be more heavily leaning toward a boom and you'd be more vulnerable to attack from someone doing the "normal" start with bigger army.

TLDR your advantage of doing the forage boom in a late age like Digital is having some citizens quicker, but this equalizes with a normal start because you wasted 250 food.

[Arntzen]

I think the point Omega was getting at is that there's no value to TCing a forage other than having extra citizen production capability. TCs do not provide a foraging bonus, only a mining bonus.

Which is all fairly obvious to all liga players who know how the population bonuses work. Still there is a ton of ligaplayers doing forageTC because they think it's the best solution of the two TC-starts. That's the reason why I posted this, to show the "advantage of forage TC" isn't great at all. You get two more citizens sure, but no bonus. Note that most people think forage TC gives greater citizens production advantage than only 2 citizens, something that just isn't true seeing you only need to gather 25 wood for the second settlement. Also if someone can show me a push that a forageTC start can stop but a regular TC start can't (because of two citizens more from forageTC) then I might change my mind, until then I'll stick with regular TC.

The only time TCing a forage is valuable is before your second settlement (on a mine) is built, you're currently whoring food sources, and you want to spend that food on additional citizens ASAP.

Again, why put yourself in that situation? If your gameplan is whoring food and TC up, get 2 on wood from start and do a proper TC.

Taking a second look at this:

My only concern is I often pop even before I know how my minefield look.

If your going for TC start you know from the second you see "Digital" or "Nano" on the top of your screen that you're going for it. Therefore there shouldn't be a problem doing a little bit more scouting and getting 2 on wood from start instead of all 5 to forage. Also with 10+5 speed on citz it's fairly easy to spot the mine(s) you want to populate instead of the forage.

[Ghost]

You should build your tower touching your capital to defend it since it's the most important building

[lightnessking.]

You should build your tower touching your capital to defend it since it's the most important building

False, always build towers infront of gates. (should copy the cpu's.)
So that they cannot even reach the gate, allowing you to boom and win the game.