Oldschool vs Newschool

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Arntzen
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Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Arntzen »

Be specific to a single player or setting or just in general.
Is there any reason to believe anyone past 2006 would stand a chance in a 2002 expert game seeing the number of players has dropped so significantly? Or opposite, did they even know what the hell to do back in prehistoric ages of EE?

Personally I think it would be incredible hard to reach an elite level of play without having great opponents to play all day. BUT when hearing the stories of the great players back in the day it just doesn't match up.
Omega wrote: (It would have nothing to do with me beating Smoke in under 5 f11 in a WW1 game where RIC accused me of cheating, and Smoke generally being an asshole and crying for hours, if anyone were thinking that randomly)
Like this. There is no way you can convince me a guy being rushed by w/e Omega did and don't think it's possible to get it out in time, that this guy is expert. Same goes for RIC.

Black Cobras stories are the best tho. His legendary "People were so good in 2002 they tcboom at forage in wing" or "Enigma 7TC start and hold swordrush in mid aoc". List goes on.
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Omega »

That game doesn't really count, Kazter.

One of the observers was lagging it up like a motherfucker until after Smoke raged; he sucked at microing. Smoke had a below-average quality spot. I had hippos that literally started at my capitol, a triple mine (including forage there) with trees right next to it, triple elephants for hunt (not fucking joking), and virtually almost all of the remaining hunt on the map right next to my base. One of my ally's hippos ran to me around 3 f11, too.
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Captain Nemo »

people tend to overrate people that were experts when oneself was in the stage of getting better. Also, when people quit they sometimes get the legend status where sometimes stories run wild, which is why suddenly some people who were slightly better than the other good experts suddenly get raised to some godlike status (krass, goldeneye... enigma apparently...). I was 14 in 2003 when I started playing EE and some others who are here now are same age as me. It's really easy to misjudge when u're that young. Example: I had plenty of "heroes" when I grew up in mod dm, with the likes of surfer, falkonetti, swarm, superfly, energ(lil later). If they had quit then I would still think of swarm being this overly amazing player and tho he really is very good I've put him "down on earth" and seen his weaknesses in many ways that I never thought he had in the past. Same goes for the others, even energy. Surfer, I can even laugh about now that I thought he was so good.
Given this, We can assume that Krass if skill is normally distributed, and that Krass is perhaps approximately 3 sd to the right of the mean skill level (z_krass ~ 3), then approximately 0.135% of people will be of equal or better skill than Krass. The game had a MUCH larger population in the past, therefore, there isn't really any reason you should doubt my claim, nor is this really all that unlikely given the larger past population of EE.
So this applies to GR too? Bigger pop -> has more experts than the lobby. (same distribution as the lobby)


My opinion is the more u play EE the more experience you get and u can use that to win more games despite your skill level being constant throughout your career. Likewise with people's IQ/smartness through history. People were just as smart in 1700 as today, but we are building upon other's achievements and learning from each other. Even a stupid person today knows things about the world the brightest minds had no clue about in year 1000. That does not mean we are smarter today tho.
Much like a child growing up, will have the same talent/IQ pretty much thoughout it's life but it takes time to learn everything and it isn't untill like 30+ u reach the pinnacle.
I believe EE has evolved, strats has been invented that people had no idea about in 2002 and thus making a mediocre player today capable of beating an expert of the past - playing some of the new strategies invented that are pretty normal to today's players. That doesn't mean that player is better tho cause soon the oldtime expert will catch up with the new ways and use his superior skill level to eventually become better.

In conclusion the players of the past were good in their time, but a game of past prime vs present prime Im sure the present would win in most setts at least. But imo that does not mean the people of today are better, they're simply just part of the higher state of evolution in the game.
But obviously, the more u have played the better u can get just like my "child analogy". So even tho the highly skilled players of the past had great talent they hadn't fully fulfilled their talent to it's pinnacle. Lets say they're still teenagers, whereas some of us who have stuck here for years are now in our 30-40'ies of the EE life :D

I really hope u could follow my line of thoughts there.
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Texas Ranger »

I think the old experts would win, simply because they had a better atmosphere for improvement and were able to really hone their skills. There are not enough good players online these days for people to practice their strats and learn to adapt against other pros.

To take myself as an example, I was far better at the end of the server days than I am now - and it's not just because I'm rusty as shit at the moment. Even if I were to play every day for a long time and feel comfortable with my civs again, I would not reach the same skill level I already had because I would not be playing against the awesome players that I did on the server all the time. Back then I would play against lion_, Seizmic, Krass, and other great players EVERY DAY and I was forced to get better. Now? I don't dare host 1v1s. Playing against even players who are currently 'above average' is often such a bore and I feel like I almost get worse for even playing it.

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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Captain Nemo »

Yeah thats true texas, but up untill then at least, 2008 compared to 2002 players. Thats still beyond the 2006 mark :D

I also think eec mid reached it's full potential early, since the strategy is mid simply isn't very complex and the same strats that were played then are being played today. Mod dm is an entirely different story where new trends has reshaped the set over the years. I know you'll disagree but just watch how slam can destroy swarm in 7f11 every time cause swarm doesn't develop his strat with time.

Personally I haven't played a proper mod dm game for years but it would take me 3-5 proper games and I'd be just as good as my very best. But obviously I can't improve unless I get any games, thats a given.

Anyway my thoughts of the whole thing are obviously with some major loopholes but the main "theme" of it I stand by.
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ben55
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by ben55 »

I don't think you could for certain say either or would be better. Since the way the settings were played is different. I think the older players placed much more value on military and overall pressure (eco raiding, small skirmishes, etc). While the players later in the years developed skills to play the late game and boom better, so they prefer to do that. I use to rush every game in every settings because that is what the people better than me did and nobody had really learned to boom compared to booming skills today. Then later in my ee career I learned I was a much better player booming and micro wise in the late game, so I learned how to defend and take advantage what I'm good at.
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by CusTomm_ »

Who would u consider a "new" expert first of all?

I am pretty sceptic and won't go so far to compare the "new"-experts to the old experts. My personal opinion is that "new" experts are just called experts because good old players became to rusty to beat them :). As taxas said, the rest of the old players simply didnt play active enough to hold the level of skill and thatswhy the overall rating became ambiguous. A "good" player distinguish to what a good player was back in times.

Tho, I understand what nemo means.

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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by assys »

Some weeks ago I played kazter in some mod tl 1on1s on eec and I can say that I can't remember someone who did better in the past than he did then.

This is about eec mod tl, not aoc mod tl just to mention it again since there are big differences between these two.

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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by CusTomm_ »

ben55 wrote:I don't think you could for certain say either or would be better. Since the way the settings were played is different. I think the older players placed much more value on military and overall pressure (eco raiding, small skirmishes, etc). While the players later in the years developed skills to play the late game and boom better, so they prefer to do that. I use to rush every game in every settings because that is what the people better than me did and nobody had really learned to boom compared to booming skills today. Then later in my ee career I learned I was a much better player booming and micro wise in the late game, so I learned how to defend and take advantage what I'm good at.
I fully agree, that these days games are late- games quite often but I think the reasons for that are different.
Simply the best example for that is the "set" Gren. Earlier on the people rushed, they played acitve games and they simply played a 2 rax+houses start because its good to defend rushes. But they didnt do it because they were better in rushing than in booming, they simply did it because camping and walling is just fucking boring, especially in a 1 unit game and I am pretty sure that these people boomed better than Gren players these days. What changed? No activity untill f11 13, people save for hero from f11 10 and boom often still sucks. I dont think its because people like it to expand, its more like the people dont have the ability to play the really quick games anymore, neither do I...
Gren is an extreme example, but also mod sh 1v1 or mid's or w/e.
Last edited by CusTomm_ on Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Captain Nemo »

Im sorry can u repeat that? it simply didn't make any sense. U saying people played 2 rax starts and rushed with that or?
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by CusTomm_ »

Yeah, Gren was played 2rax+houses and yes, people didnt wall up and camped, people rushed...What is the problem with that? Since everyone had 2 rax... ?

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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Captain Nemo »

sorry but people can't "rush" with a 2rax strat lol. Nobody played 2rax starts anyway. 3rax start is much older than grenwar itself.

People were just alot worse at grenwar in the beginning, 2005 things started bettering but still pretty bad tbh
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by CusTomm_ »

Are we talking about the same game?
3 rax start of course was known and some people did it, but there was a lot of 2 rax starts. I am pretty sure you wont be able to rush me (2rax+houses) with a 3 rax start, except u wanna die :).
Anyway this topic shouldnt be about Gren strats. My conclusion just was that games have been much faster and more active earlier on.
Last edited by CusTomm_ on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by Captain Nemo »

Well nice point but it's super untrue lol. People cirtainly never rushed with 2 rax. You're talking about boom 2rax start with houses or something. People didn't even micro in the early gren days. It wasn't untill mortal came along and showed the power of outranging your opponent with moving back and forth. You laugh at this today but it was new to most of us then in the middle of 2004.

I don't remember you being around in the beginning of grenwar btw

edit: In 4v4 wing I'd definitely be able to rush u with 3rax start vs your 2rax
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Re: Oldschool vs Newschool

Post by CusTomm_ »

I started playing between 2004-2005, so I was noob there. Still I remember them playing with 2 rax :P. And I also remember them not just sitting around.

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