Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

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Best EE'er of all time?

Samuel
8
5%
Omega
8
5%
ras
14
10%
Epic
9
6%
Wolvy
2
1%
Phobia/Zeke
17
12%
lion_
7
5%
Bones
6
4%
Krass
37
25%
BE
4
3%
Elfanor
5
3%
Lavanger
7
5%
Twisted Bum
2
1%
Goldeneye
16
11%
Captain Nemo
5
3%
 
Total votes: 147

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Ghost »

ben55 wrote:I haven't seen a 'liga' player do well at all on AOC TL other than Krass and Goldeneye, but they have been playing it for as long as I have. Bones did alright, but I wouldn't of callled him an expert. And no offense Samuel but I doubt you could just jump into Mod Tl and play at a very good level.
This. I will be the first to admit that AoC Mod TL is unlike anything I had seen on EE and that it took me a good long time to get even decent at it. After you get to that point the learning curve isn't as steep but I spent a significant amount of time playing it and still I'm not that great at it.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

Ghost,
good post, and I will elaborate further what I meant before. You can be an amazing player and still not play Liga at that very excellent level. It's just that if you don't play liga, you will have to make up for it by playing more than just one single set. If i were to join eC, Ts or other clans, if I offer Liga and Mid SH (just an example), it will be considered better than Mid SH and grenwar. It might even be considered better than even Mid SH, grenwar, and Mod SH.
This is why to me a good player needs to be able to play liga at a pretty good level at least (not necessarily reaching excellence), and in the extreme case, if he doesn't play liga, make up for it by playing very well different sets, even two would be fine.

ben55 wrote: I disagree. I think Modern DM requires the most combination of skill and game analysis. Simply because you're under pressure to do it so fast. Liga requires most expansive knowledge, like what civs do what, when units evolve, etc but you are rarely thinking as much as you are in a Mod DM.
Actually you need to think all the time. Knowledge can help you at an earlier stage but if you dont think exactly about absolutely everything, you will not reach excellence. To me Zeke you haven't reached that excellence, at least not yet, and the later part of your post kind of proves it.
ben55 wrote: Liga to me was one of the easiest setts to learn to play at a very good level. Because the knowledge is static. You have civs that you can read that give you an idea of their units and sometimes even their start up. There are basically three types of starts, 2 settle, 1 settle no settle which are all easily discovered in the first five minutes or so. There are around 3-4 dominant units per age to account for, and when you age they may shift but you can learn that stuff quickly and it never changes. The hardest thing to learn was proper use of your scout dog, but the micro, macro or game analysis isn't anything special and is sometimes much easier depending on the age you land in compared to some other settings I've played.
This post shows why, and I am sorry zeke but it's true, no excellent Liga 1v1 player will mention in their list of greatest 1v1 players.
This doesn't mean that you aren't a great player, you are (as I said above when saying every player in the poll was a good choice), just this overall level you have reached is more the contrubution of other sets than your liga (which is still good, and that's admirable).

The fact that you didn't find almost-hidden ways to analyze games doesn't mean that these ways don't exist. Perhaps there is a connection between this thinking of yours and the fact that you weren't able to reach excellence at Ligasetting, because, just like every excellent player will say, including Krass, Goldeneye, ras and others, Liga is a constant analysis in real time of single tiny, little details that will influence the result of the game. Not everybody is capable of understanding such details, sometimes because they haven't played the set enough, other times because ther mindset doesn't allow them to go over a certain stage.
Or perhaps (and I think this is your case), because they haven't involved themselves enough in the Liga 1v1ing scene, constantly desiring to beat their rivals to the point of having to find a way so that pretty much everything becomes of importance.

What about the distance between your maps (at stone age), and the timing of the opponent's gold mine (assuming spear start).
Does he have hunt at gold/iron? How many hunters? How many wood cutters?
And how does it work EXACTLY and PRECISELY compared to my switch at 9.00, some from food to wood to force a quicker GOLD mine and a quicker mix to surprise him?
Will it work against the gold timing of the enemy?
Will his hunt advantage him or even make him slower if he's not careful?
If i were to decide it wouldn't work, how many shall i move to hunt eventually to instead play more economically based?
When do I tc?
Does the gold timing of the enemy allow me to TC safely in this case?
Will the distance help or not?
Should I make upgrades in this situation, which ones?
Should i actually stop spears or play for a quicker age up?
Should I add second archery range or save wood for farm and stable when I age up?
Or perhaps use that wood to upgrade archers?
When do I get the second gold mine?

(I purposely overlooked the beginning of the game about how many woodcutters and the timing of the irons, things like eventually massing wood more quickly at the beginning if the hunt is at the front, to make an earlier settlement there to be able to get hunt at an earlier stage and have better chances of preventing him from killing it ;), I just wanted to make it shorter, this one was just one example)


Every little detail will generate things like these. I will be sincere with you. I don't know the answer of any of those questions (aside few things like the one in the bracket but it would still depend on the map and situation), because the answers will generate in a different way every single game depending on the map and on what you have done so far and on what the enemy is doing. That is what analysis is. And it is much deeper than what you pictured it to be.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by ben55 »

You do those little things in every setting.

A typical 1v1 Mod TL from 2007 versus a good player.
Did he TC forage?
Did he go wood or iron with second TC?
Did he get gold before 5f11?
Is he forwarding me?
Did he start 6, 5 or 4 TCs?
Did he make one tank factory and an airport?
Did he make two airports or just one?
Did he etc.

I could go on and on. Every setting has this analytic checklist you go through with in your mind. To me in Liga it isn't any different. The amount of knowledge you have to learn is greater, but that doesn't make it more difficult to grasp at least to me.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

ben55 wrote:You do those little things in every setting.

A typical 1v1 Mod TL from 2007 versus a good player.
Did he TC forage?
Did he go wood or iron with second TC?
Did he get gold before 5f11?
Is he forwarding me?
Did he start 6, 5 or 4 TCs?
Did he make one tank factory and an airport?
Did he make two airports or just one?
Did he etc.

I could go on and on. Every setting has this analytic checklist you go through with in your mind. To me in Liga it isn't any different. The amount of knowledge you have to learn is greater, but that doesn't make it more difficult to grasp at least to me.
The list you made has nothing to do with my list. It's really basic and simple and has nothing to do with what I said.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by simple_faith »

assassin is still not in the poll? this is unbelieveable
Image

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Captain Nemo »

agreeing with ghost and zeke here.

Although liga is the formula one of EE, it's not necessarily the hardest nor the one to determine one's overall EE skill level the best. The problem I see in liga is the map issue. One being u have to scout your map, sometimes you're lucky finding hippo fast sometimes not. This mostly applies to teamgames, but map is so crucial both in 1v1 and teamgames. The civ thing makes everybody do the same thing basically.

My other issue with liga (sort of a fun related issue) is the fact it ends in nano. It's very hard if not impossible to turn a game around. You can fuck up with army control as much as u want, but if you're ahead u'll have age up faster. eco ups faster and stronger units obviusly. You'll exponentially get stronger than your opponent. So you can't turn a game around just like that due to good micro etc cause no matter how good micro u have u'll never be able to kill units of a much higher age. Which is the thing I love doing most in EE.

Every sett has it's flaws imo. Not like my beloved mod dm doesn't have flaws that are annoying, but without them it's not the same anyway.

Mod DM was the hardest sett for me to learn by far, I was a noob for years. It's like no other thing in EE which is why often you're either a mod dm'er or you're not. It's the fewest DM'ers who have learned the other setts, and only few allsett players have taken the time to properly learn this (respect to those who did). Theres always something to do in this sett, and while you're fighting over land you have to pay attention to what every other player in the game is doing and how you can make your own strat make the biggest impact on the opposing team. Personally I find the drawback in this set the wide range of strategies also makes room for "all or nothing" strategies (u either win or lose completely in 5f11. useless in late game) that can be annoying to lose to.

Liga requires alot of learning cause of all the ages, which is why even for an experienced "all sett" player it will take some time to get into liga. The sett requires extreme attention to small details as this sett lets u get stronger exponentially. So even very little things in the early game have big impact later. Therefore important to perfect your starts even if it seems like 30 ress wont matter much. My personal problem with Liga being I couldn't care less about the small details, I wanna get to late game where somewhat bigger armies can clash, but as explained it doesn't work that way in liga ;)

Mod TL came easy to me because of all the mod dm experience and I knew tl/sh setts aswell. It did add a few new things tho, like fast forward base and M1/mortar that was new to me. The whole aspect of winning all the mines u can very soon is something u don't see much in other setts. Hardest thing for me in this sett is effectively balancing my eco when I produce cits at the rate I do. Often I don't know what to do with them and I find myself having too many on wood, or sometimes forget to increase my army production rate. Apart from the start it's pretty stressful to me. I only played this sett for a very short period. The way u can get away with "wasting" units tho is what annoys me most with this sett.

Mid SH (aoc) has so many strategies that can work, but u can basically get away with just knowing 1 or 2 strats and still be competitive. It's imo not a very tough set to play when u're doing a large map, because u don't need to be fast at anything. What u do need is to be prepared to rebuild your base over and over again. A thing that can be very hard to a liga player cause they're used to once they're behind theres no coming back.. ;)

Mid SH (eec) requies less knowledge and strategic understanding than mid sh aoc, but requires much more micro and speed in your playing. It's a constant hunt for citkillings which is also the annoying element.

Indy SH (eec) is the master sett of teamplay. When and where to attack is everything in this sett, and it's extremely important to be able to predict your opponent. One of my fav setts. Very easy to learn, but some never learn to master the strategic part in the teamplay. Drawback is most games are over in 6-10f11 and eventho the late game experience is fun with bombards, it rarely gets to that point. Most often the strongest inf player will make his team win, which is why grenwar began.


Yeah wasn't planning on writing about every sett, but the post turned into this and I thought what the hell :D
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Ghost »

Samuel wrote:
ben55 wrote:list
The list you made has nothing to do with my list. It's really basic and simple and has nothing to do with what I said.
Yes it does. Mod TL moves at a faster pace and therefore the little things you're talking about from Liga become irrelevant.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

Captain Nemo wrote: Liga requires alot of learning cause of all the ages, which is why even for an experienced "all sett" player it will take some time to get into liga. The sett requires extreme attention to small details as this sett lets u get stronger exponentially. So even very little things in the early game have big impact later. Therefore important to perfect your starts even if it seems like 30 ress wont matter much. My personal problem with Liga being I couldn't care less about the small details, I wanna get to late game where somewhat bigger armies can clash, but as explained it doesn't work that way in liga ;)
This.
Ghost wrote: Yes it does. Mod TL moves at a faster pace and therefore the little things you're talking about from Liga become irrelevant.
As for the second part about the faster pace, I agree.
Being liga a set that typically runs at a slower pace all of those tiny details become very important. In other faster sets mechanics become more important, of course there is still a degree of strategy involved, just sometimes the way someone "booms" becomes more important, sometimes also big armies are out so quickly that the analytical early game phase of liga, part of it at least, is just skipped to a later stage.




As for his list it has nothing to do with mine, he said:

"Did he TC forage?
Did he go wood or iron with second TC?
Did he get gold before 5f11?
Is he forwarding me?
Did he start 6, 5 or 4 TCs?
Did he make one tank factory and an airport?
Did he make two airports or just one?
Did he etc."

How is this analysis? This is just mere and simple aknoledging of what the enemy is doing, what i meant was different, for example:

As you know in stone age, in typical 2 settlement spears vs 2 settlement spears kind of games, the typical continuation is adding bows.
The thing is, how does the timing of his hunt (if he decides to get it, if he makes settlement there or not (keeping in mind the way he's spending wood and how many woodcutters he has) ) (if he has hunt by iron he wont build it) connect with mine/his double mine? Does this all allow me to TC, and when?

(If i TC in a certain time, the enemy might get an early advantage on the timing of his bows. So whilst generally (but not always) the earlier the TC the better the economical advantage, it's also true that TCing too early might make me weaker to an early bows mix, when is then the best timing for the TC in relation to my mines, his mines, my hunt, his hunt (timing and how many citizens) and the amounts of wood we have? Which timing will give the best advantage?) ---> (obviously keeping in mind the gold timings and other things as well, including the iron mine ;))

And so on (I could go on for hours just for stone age)
Which is completely different to what you said, every single person is able to tell whether someone has started 2 settlement, 1 settlement or TC or noticing whether or not they have made a rax, or 2 rax and a tank factory, 1 or two airport. Hence why it is different. Liga focuses on these kind of things, some players have decided to focus more on other sets (which is fine) and will be more knowledgeable about things concerning their sets. I am talking about my set. I could go ahead and talk of little details like these for hours just for stone age. Sometimes the games are over by f11 5 and the enemy players (even good players just not expert in 1v1) haven't even realized it because they overlook these details.
Perhaps in other sets there is no time for this, but there is time in liga, and this is the set i have decided to focus on. Whilst other sets might require more multitasking, mechanics or are more micro intense, if you want to get the excellence at liga you will need to use every small detail.

Just as I said to Nemo before, let's say skills in a set go from 1 to 100. And let's say it's relatively easy to get at 85 with Liga, which is (of course i'm simplifying it a lot) lets say the cap for those people who just wanted to be good at the setting without exploring the details even further. Whilst it might take you few months to get from 65 to 85, it might take you 2 years to get from 85 to 90.

Because after a certain stage where you have "mastered" the overall Liga feeling where you can do every "start" (again, i'm simplifying) quite well and even play competitively, to get from 85 to 90 you can't improve that same aspect further (which you have already "mastered"), and so you will have to find other ways.
And the conventional "guides" and the conventional "strategies" that people say about ligasetting only allow you to reach 85, to get that higher you will have to find details that are unknown to most players. That is why when some people say "to be good at liga you only need to build orders" that is extremely false and incorrect. You need something more, that kind of analysis i gave you an example of above, and it takes time and experience.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by ben55 »

Since my quick example is too 'simple'.

What about the distance between your maps (at stone age), and the timing of the opponent's gold mine (assuming spear start).
Okay you look at that too in Mod Tl, you see it is a smaller map and he ignores gold you account for fast forward, you scout of course but you analyzing these things as well.


Does he have hunt at gold/iron? How many hunters? How many wood cutters?

You look at that too if they have that, you obviously should account for that if you plan on forwarding or towering. Wood cutters can tell you if they're booming, forwarding or whatever. If they have less they're probably on metals planning a quicker army.
And how does it work EXACTLY and PRECISELY compared to my switch at 9.00, some from food to wood to force a quicker GOLD mine and a quicker mix to surprise him?
I'm not sure what you're explaining, but I think you're talking about feinting strategies. I remember a game versus Goldeneye I built 1 barrack and 1 siege fact outside his base. I had killed his dog so he couldn't scout my main base. He thought I forwarded, so he went heavy on tanks and lost a lot of food. I hardly forwarded him and just harassed his mines, while I did a 6 TC 2 Farm boom and overwhelmed him with a hero at 16f11.
Will it work against the gold timing of the enemy?
Will his hunt advantage him or even make him slower if he's not careful?
If i were to decide it wouldn't work, how many shall i move to hunt eventually to instead play more economically based?
If he defeats my forward and only commits a few tanks. I have to decide do I want to fight with air to free up my food/wood, so I don't fall behind economically, or do I sacrifice my economy advantage and begin to make land. Do I get extra metals (for air) to mass air or do I do extra make farms in preparation of my m1/mortar to fight a larger army.
When do I tc?
Does the gold timing of the enemy allow me to TC safely in this case?
Will the distance help or not?
When/Where do I forward? Is the map too big? -- does his hunt by his double mine suggest I should just feint a forward and hope he over commits or do I try a boom game knowing my forward will likely fail? Maybe he is going to forward me with that double mine. Or maybe he has focused too much on his good spot and I can squeeze the rest of his base slowing his expansion/boom down.
Should I make upgrades in this situation, which ones?
Is he tanks? Marines? Air? which upgrades do I do to make the most out of my forward or what is he mixing with his forward and what units am I? What do I need to upgrade to counter that best?
Should I add second archery range or save wood for farm and stable when I age up?
Or perhaps use that wood to upgrade archers?
When do I get the second gold mine?
Should I hold off on this farm and get an airport at the cost of my marine or tank production? If I am going air when should i get my next sets of mines. Should I slow down on my mineral expansion and dedicated those cits to farms and wood cutting to have a more balanced economy.
Last edited by ben55 on Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by ben55 »

I'm not seeing much of a difference in difficulty in liga compared to other setts. The things that stand out to me is you have to learn how to properly use units in each age and how to properly adjust your economy for each age.

Things like strategy isn't that much more 'harder' to grasp. It might be more complex because of the variety of ages and aging up, but is it more difficult IDK not to me. I find analyzing information at a high speed(due the nature of the sett being so fast paced) in MOD DM more difficult than playing a slower chess like game in liga.

I mean to you that might be harder and more complex to learn, but I think thinking at a high pace is more difficult rather than planning for variables/every move (chess/liga).

They're different skill setts that people react too differently. I don't think you can say one is outright 'harder' than the other for everyone. It isn't like Liga is Calculus and everything else is 5th grade math.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

ben55 wrote:
And how does it work EXACTLY and PRECISELY compared to my switch at 9.00, some from food to wood to force a quicker GOLD mine and a quicker mix to surprise him?
I'm not sure what you're explaining, but I think you're talking about feinting strategies. I remember a game versus Goldeneye I built 1 barrack and 1 siege fact outside his base. I had killed his dog so he couldn't scout my main base. He thought I forwarded, so he went heavy on tanks and lost a lot of food. I hardly forwarded him and just harassed his mines, while I did a 6 TC 2 Farm boom and overwhelmed him with a hero at 16f11.
No, it wasn't really about that, perhaps the example above in my post above might clarify it a bit. Still if you want further explanation about THIS particular example and what i meant about it, ask me on lobby, it's not like i wanna share everything here on the forums.
ben55 wrote:
Will it work against the gold timing of the enemy?
Will his hunt advantage him or even make him slower if he's not careful?
If i were to decide it wouldn't work, how many shall i move to hunt eventually to instead play more economically based?
If he defeats my forward and only commits a few tanks. I have to decide do I want to fight with air to free up my food/wood, so I don't fall behind economically, or do I sacrifice my economy advantage and begin to make land. Do I get extra metals (for air) to mass air or do I do extra make farms in preparation of my m1/mortar to fight a larger army.
you missed this point, read above and/or ask on lobby.
ben55 wrote:
When do I tc?
Does the gold timing of the enemy allow me to TC safely in this case?
Will the distance help or not?
When/Where do I forward? Is the map too big? -- does his hunt by his double mine suggest I should just feint a forward and hope he over commits or do I try a boom game knowing my forward will likely fail? Maybe he is going to forward me with that double mine. Or maybe he has focused too much on his good spot and I can squeeze the rest of his base slowing his expansion/boom down.
Although you make quite interesting points, i meant something different
Should I make upgrades in this situation, which ones?
Is he tanks? Marines? Air? which upgrades do I do to make the most out of my forward or what is he mixing with his forward and what units am I? What do I need to upgrade to counter that best?

not sure if we mean the same thing, maybe yes
ben55 wrote:
Should I add second archery range or save wood for farm and stable when I age up?
Or perhaps use that wood to upgrade archers?
When do I get the second gold mine?
Should I hold off on this farm and get an airport at the cost of my marine or tank production? If I am going air when should i get my next sets of mines. Should I slow down on my mineral expansion and dedicated those cits to farms and wood cutting to have a more balanced economy.
A bit basic, but maybe just because you didn't provide with an example. See the above post, although i only showed a pretty basic example because i dont really like to share what took me years to understand.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

ben55 wrote: Things like strategy isn't that much more 'harder' to grasp. It might be more complex because of the variety of ages and aging up, but is it more difficult IDK not to me. I find analyzing information at a high speed(due the nature of the sett being so fast paced) in MOD DM more difficult than playing a slower chess like game in liga.
It depends on what you think there is to grasp ;)

As for Mod DM as I said above i consider it to be a hard set.



ben55 wrote:I mean to you that might be harder and more complex to learn, but I think thinking at a high pace is more difficult rather than planning for variables/every move (chess/liga).

They're different skill setts that people react too differently. I don't think you can say one is outright 'harder' than the other for everyone. It isn't like Liga is Calculus and everything else is 5th grade math.
Sure. Liga is the hardest from the analytical point of view, other sets are harder in other things. That's how i see it

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Captain Nemo »

As for Mod DM as I said above i consider it to be a hard set.
no sam u didn't say that above. As for a set u don't know, u can't really compare the two. Zeke can.

And yes it seems zeke's analysis for mod tl is the exact same principle.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

I said I thought it to be harder than Mid SH, but well, I hope we aren't going to analyze word by word, this is not Liga ^^

It's different. I could do such "analysis" well before mastering 1v1 Liga (just the rax part is interesting).
Aside from that part, if that ever was the same principle it would just be the baby-version of it, something that can be developed way further.
When excellency leaves, the quite good will think they are excellent. The basic "analysis" will be thought of as real analysis. As for me I'm happy to have joined many challenges amongst the set's best and that's why i thought it would be worth it to explore the depths of the set itself.
So when I say these things don't take it bad zeke im just showin where it could be taken further since its my set and ive played it for many years. The example of the rax was nice and it shows you actually use your mind, just dont think that you have reached the core of what the set is just by that because its actually much deeper.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by herik »

Kazter wrote:Herik, as you know I've played AOC since I came back to EE (2009) and saw all Mid games were played on AOC. There is only five people that have impressed me on aoc (when I exclude players who play both like himmy). Those five are (in my opinion right order): 1. Lavanger, 2. Zeke, 3. Shade(who you forgot to mention?!?!), 4. Taco and 5. Tool.
Lets start from the beginning first of all, u weren't that good at mid until you started playing mid on aoc with me and ak, (others in clan), as for tool, mod was around at that time, you didn't even know he could play mid. And I put soriana for pre islands, I really hate how "old players", think they know so much wen they r simply puffed up in pride, you say earn respect kaz? maybe we would if eec players played on aoc. Also I would like to remind each and every one of you why we have lost so many players,
1. How many of you and still do go onto game ranger, if im correct it was lobby eec players that started this trend, that told everyone to go, that destroyed the classic eec mid/grens games, and now the only games that are left is eec pre. well congrats every1. If not aoc has earned even more respect for staying alive with having more then one set available ALSO how many players of the "great" liga clans have lasted and are still playing ee? Oh thats right you all went to sc2, and now u just sit in lobby talking on forums and neva play a game, tell me do any of u actaully no the lobbys fb page that tricky and I set up? i bet half the mods don't and haven't bothered putting in the effort that is required to promote ee lobby. No kaz, i belive the eec community needs to sought there act out, no kaz mid sh is a skillful set, that u have obviously lost sight of, no liga is not the most skillful set its simply the set with most strategies. If you of all people cant understand aoc needs respect i have no hope for this community.

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