Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

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Best EE'er of all time?

Samuel
8
5%
Omega
8
5%
ras
14
10%
Epic
9
6%
Wolvy
2
1%
Phobia/Zeke
17
12%
lion_
7
5%
Bones
6
4%
Krass
37
25%
BE
4
3%
Elfanor
5
3%
Lavanger
7
5%
Twisted Bum
2
1%
Goldeneye
16
11%
Captain Nemo
5
3%
 
Total votes: 147

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Arntzen
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm

You didn't outright say otherwise in reference to 04 krass vs 06 krass but it's heavily implied, yes. You talk about "prior to 06" and "04 Krass" which are specific time frames.
I did not imply this. I said "If you're talking about before 2006 or something" and then went on to explain I'm speaking of the present, not that time.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
@returning experts...how long did it take you consistently playing to become as good as you are now? You think an expert coming back after 6-14 years is going to be anywhere close to what they were? So many things could have happened in that time frame too, people actually age in that timespan, you lose a % of brain cells every single year, reaction speed drops, motivation, emotional aspects etc etc
I do not expect a returning expert player who hasn't played forever to play as they did at their peak. Now you can say that I implied this all you want, but I never said this. I agree with what you're saying about reaction speed and motivation.
My point about returning players is this: Practically nobody coming back is able to compete, even the ones that stay and plays for months. This speaks against the notion that these old timers played at a much higher level than the current players. Krass in practically every set is an exception to this when he came back (I would argue that this has a lot to do with him continuing to play RTS games while being gone from EE). Co Death is an exception to this in P2S and P2N. BGC (Chinese player) is an exception to this liga.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
You simply can't use that as accurate proof of anything.

In fact, I think I played for two days in 2014 after not playing competitively since 06 and only having a handful of games in 2012. I lost 3-2 to Krass in mid sh 1v1s. I 1v1'd out of pure boredom, Krass had legitimate motivation to beat me. By all rights he should have utterly crushed me, don't you agree?
Krass came back to EE in October 2013 (I know this because at the time I took screens of almost all games I played or observed). And I think he left the same month, so that wasn't exactly a long period back. At that time he wasn't interested in 1v1s, and just chilled with team games. I do not recall him playing anything at all from then until 2016 when he returned a second time. It's possible you played him in 2014, but if so then he was practically as rusty as you were. I'm curious, do you remember what name he used?
It is not until summer 2016 when he returned properly and that's when I wrote this:
Arntzen wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:35 pm
OK! One ticket to the krass hype train..

Best I've seen.
In 2016 he said the skill level was the highest he's ever experienced and that it had increased since last time (2013). When he returned again early this year he once again said the skill level had increased.

seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
Either way, can we agree with this:

Even IF the era is of higher calibre today, deciding who the undisputed best player of EE history is an exercise in futility and the effort spent would be better put into actually discussing many different players and what made them stand out above their peers? Along with the games rich online competitive history.
I think it's an interesting discussion even though I admit we'll probably never reach a conclusion we'll all agree with. I also think it'd be an interesting topic/thread to talk about EE's competitive history, but I don't see how these two topics are mutually exclusive.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
For me, Icestorm is the the best of all time and he stopped his dominant 1v1 reign in early 05 in order to strengthen the community and build a great culture of competitive 4v4 games, which he did, brilliantly and we all owe him our thanks for keeping the game going as long as it has, I promise you without him there would be even less players than there currently are. That transcends 1v1s, for me, which he paid his dues in any way.
Him, and a long line of other players have done tons to keep this game going.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
You haven't addressed my issue with how people like you and Witchking conduct yourselves in relation to EEs player lineage either, compared to other players that were at the top echelon of the games competitive scene and never once felt the need to claim their era is superior to the previous experts of the past who played and dominated but are no longer active.

If I come across like a prick, it's not personal, it's just me but I'm not trying to troll/insult you.
I guess you're refering to this:
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:20 pm
I learned all of my info and knowledge in 2006 of the previous best players off Icestorm and he will tell you, as dominant as I was in 1v1s, I never disrespected the previous best players who weren't around anymore by claiming I could beat them or my era is more competitive...which is in direct contrast to you and Witchking (who I fucking trained, by the way) who sit here disrespecting the games lineage and prominent players in an attempt to bolster your claims of superiority. It's not how the truly best players of present eras conduct themselves.

That shit speaks volumes to me.
What you're saying here is the least charitable take on me and Dave I can think of. Dave saying that based on what he's seen he thinks the level of today's best is higher. At the same time when talking about all setts players he put Lion and Goldeneye on his list of 4, and both of them haven't played in a very long time. Goldeneye stayed the longest and he quit late 2010 I believe.
I think he huge factor contributing to the skill level to rise simply comes from the number of games we've had. There is no doubt in my mind that older players if they stayed would not only follow this rise in skill, but I'm sure if we had more players the skill level would've risen even higher.
If you think we're being disrespectful I think you're reading into something that's not there.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm

I'd say we have a difference of opinion when it comes to the best players of that time frame, I knew the eec players mostly from team games and AoC. Some were top players in 1v1s (though never the best), but like Lion they weren't nearly as strong in team games. Buttfreek came close to beating Goldeneye and Nevermind by himself in a 2v2 tournament when his ally had intentionally trolled him, in a full 4v4 he was much more valuable to a team than either.
Wait, what time frame are you speaking of?
I said Krass surpassed Goldeneye before he left. This is Late 2010 if I remember correctly. I do not remember buttfreak or nevermind playing at this time so we're probably not speaking of the same era.
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm
As far as how Seizmic measures up to the best player of 2003, I can only speak for mid that far back(I could speak for Indy too, but I'd be comparing him to a glitcher): I think his expan cav/ballistas could beat him fairly often, I had beaten him with a similar setup during one of the last games I played with him. How motivated he was to play at the time I don't know, he seemed a step behind his usual self and was more concerned with chatting during the game, or how he'd adapted to that combination over a series of games I don't know either--it was something fairly new and for a while unique to me. However, I think the game would be decided by the strength of their style of play rather than one being clearly superior to the other.
Am I understanding you correctly: You're saying peak Seizmic (when he was at his very best) against the best Mid player in 2003, these games would be decided on strength of style rather than one being clearly superior. So they were very similarly skilled? How did you reach this conclusion?
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

I'll give your post a just reply after a needed nap, also, my mistake it was Summer 2016 I played Krass, not 2014. My bad.

I lost to Lavanger, too.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Icestorm2 »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm

I'd say we have a difference of opinion when it comes to the best players of that time frame, I knew the eec players mostly from team games and AoC. Some were top players in 1v1s (though never the best), but like Lion they weren't nearly as strong in team games. Buttfreek came close to beating Goldeneye and Nevermind by himself in a 2v2 tournament when his ally had intentionally trolled him, in a full 4v4 he was much more valuable to a team than either.
Wait, what time frame are you speaking of?
I said Krass surpassed Goldeneye before he left. This is Late 2010 if I remember correctly. I do not remember buttfreak or nevermind playing at this time so we're probably not speaking of the same era.
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm
As far as how Seizmic measures up to the best player of 2003, I can only speak for mid that far back(I could speak for Indy too, but I'd be comparing him to a glitcher): I think his expan cav/ballistas could beat him fairly often, I had beaten him with a similar setup during one of the last games I played with him. How motivated he was to play at the time I don't know, he seemed a step behind his usual self and was more concerned with chatting during the game, or how he'd adapted to that combination over a series of games I don't know either--it was something fairly new and for a while unique to me. However, I think the game would be decided by the strength of their style of play rather than one being clearly superior to the other.
Am I understanding you correctly: You're saying peak Seizmic (when he was at his very best) against the best Mid player in 2003, these games would be decided on strength of style rather than one being clearly superior. So they were very similarly skilled? How did you reach this conclusion?
I'm speaking of 2006-2008, never played with Goldeneye after Spring 2008, or Krass at all.
Edit: I did play with him later that year in some Mod TL games.

My conclusion is based on my intuition and experience with the players in question. It's not really a question of style, each of them could theory-craft and adapt to the others play-style. In a 1v1, enough games might favor one play over the other, but in a 4v4 whichever won would be a matter of context.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by ArmageddonNY »

Reinstalled this in 2020, definitely feels like i"ve time traveled

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by ApolloN »

Arntzen wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:31 am
seizmic wrote:Really, what's changed?
I'll try to explain my perspective on the topic "player from sierra era versus player from save-ee/NeoEE", maybe it'll make you see where I'm coming from.

When it comes to old experts returning (from November 2008 until the present) there has IMO been a clear gap between them and whoever is considered the current best player, with few exceptions of players that quickly was able to compete. Some examples being: KrasS in all setts, Co Death in P2N/P2S, BONES in liga, Lavanger in Mid/Mod and BGC in Liga. Note that I'm saying compete with the current best, I'm not saying completely dominate. The only player who's returned to EE and been able get more wins than losses as far as I'm aware is KrasS.

The vast majority of the returning experts have simply been outmatched. Really just putting in an average performance. Most of them then left without causing an impact, though some have stayed, played off their rust and adapted to the current meta/playstyle and improved.
Of course one shouldn't put too much emphasis on how someone who hasn't played for years and only sticks around for two weeks or so is performing. But to me certain things are quite revealing, like someone playing a civ/strategy/style that simply won't work anymore and then being stunned by disbelief when they get countered. Or showing a lack of understanding about fundamentals like scouting, map awareness and game reading ability.
It's also quite telling that the old players returning (except for a few exceptions) have to adapt to how the current players play, and not the other way around. Take someone like AOE_WATER [L] who is considered one of the best in P2N. He came back after a break and found that his pocket civilizations and strategies were completely outdated.

To be fair: Out of the players that only really played with rust while they were online and quickly left again, a few played in such a way that they convinced me they must've been really good at their peak. I believe you're one of them in Middle based on the few games you played when you and Icestorm returned. And I think if you were to start playing again it would be interesting to see how good you could get. That being said there hasn't been anyone who's convinced me they're better than the best eCs.

So what's changed?
I believe the skill ceiling has increased. Why? Because I was able to compete with the best in 2012, and I've gotten much better since then. Despite that I still have tough competition today. Returning players find they have to step up their game to compete. Of course, some of the players who still play have also gotten worse. I'm convinced splinter and kirac are just shadows of their old selves at this point. Partly because they play less, partly due to aging and also because they simply don't care as much anymore. Some also plateaued at a certain level because they refused to change/practice and are practically time machines of how games used to be played. Exposing themselves as a step or two behind the very best.

Based on this, and much more (I could go on but I think this sufficiently explains by POV), I'm convinced any old player returning would have a really hard time. At least in the beginning. All sett players like Zeke, Lavanger and BONES were good enough based on what I've seen that I believe they would be able to catch up. But I truly believe they would have to catch up. Of course I could be dead wrong.
Dude, you never played with the best players, when they were at their best. You played for MW, you were a novice and in 2012, there was no one left. We left in 2008 (shut down of the old servers) and when we came back (about 2-3 years later), we just played for fun. Never took the game seriously anymore. People like me played 1-5 games per month and never bothered to improve. You can't really compare the present skill level to the past skill level, because you were never allowed in our games. That maybe hurts your ego, but facts don't lie.
From 2009 until present, there is no competition, so any list, which shows "new expoerts" as the top players isn't valid for the past.

Your argument about the overall increase of the skill level is obviously invalid too.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

ApolloN wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:11 pm
Dude, you never played with the best players, when they were at their best. You played for MW, you were a novice and in 2012, there was no one left. We left in 2008 (shut down of the old servers) and when we came back (about 2-3 years later), we just played for fun. Never took the game seriously anymore. People like me played 1-5 games per month and never bothered to improve. You can't really compare the present skill level to the past skill level, because you were never allowed in our games. That maybe hurts your ego, but facts don't lie.
From 2009 until present, there is no competition, so any list, which shows "new expoerts" as the top players isn't valid for the past.

Your argument about the overall increase of the skill level is obviously invalid too.
So let me get this straight:
1. You speak for everyone of the "best players", all of which came back at the same time and they all didn't care anymore?
2. When you played every day for months on end and we had 100s of games, these games don't count?
3. I'm talking about the skill ceiling not the overall skill level.

Ironically these kinds of posts only makes me more convinced. You may think there is some kind of overwhelming consensus on your side, that's just not the case.

" You can't really compare the present skill level to the past skill level, because you were never allowed in our games."
I've made this point many times before, but people keep bringing this up so I guess I'll have to repeat it:
1. People who did play in those games have said the opposite of what you're saying here.
2. YOU can't compare those games to games in 2016-2018 you never even saw.

I don't know if you've forgotten but in 2013 you rated me among the best, and I improved since then. This doesn't fit your agenda I guess.

I do understand where you guys are coming from though. I stopped in 2018 and have only played a few games here and there after that, with a very casual mindset. I see players now like Tsubasa and Loco and I think there are multiple flaws in their play, and I'm convinced if I came back properly, tryhard training for a month or two I would confidently beat them. Confidently being like 8:2 win/loss ratio. I don't know this for sure though, it's a big if and it's possible they are much closer to my best than I think.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by _DavE_ »

I don't understand how some of you think you know about the periods of EE where you did not play regularly yourselves.

Seizmic, I am not disrespecting the old school players, but it's blatantly obvious that you are extremely biased towards Icestorm. So of course you're going to rate him highly, and that's fine. I rate him very highly as well, He was a talented player, and a great person.

As for your post about me failing to beat you in 2006. Yeah, that was true, you definitely won more. However, at that time, that was when I was just becoming quite good.

Fact of the matter is, the community now is very small, but the level is 100% the highest it has ever been. Some "good" players do come back, and they do just play for fun and that's fine too.

I think the list for the Best player of all time needs to be altered.

I know this is just a scenario, but I'm going to leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb0uTryLAu4&t=374s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mouhZGUcQKQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st0TDjKHyNM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1yi9TxWDak&t=117s

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