Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Talk about anything EE related and doesn't belong in another forum. Gameplay, chit-chat, or any questions you have -- it all belongs here.

Best EE'er of all time?

Samuel
8
5%
Omega
8
5%
ras
14
10%
Epic
9
6%
Wolvy
2
1%
Phobia/Zeke
17
12%
lion_
7
5%
Bones
6
4%
Krass
36
25%
BE
4
3%
Elfanor
5
3%
Lavanger
7
5%
Twisted Bum
2
1%
Goldeneye
16
11%
Captain Nemo
5
3%
 
Total votes: 146

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Arntzen
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

Ghost wrote:Hilarious this is still going. Love seeing the endless banter here, over shit that happened ages ago.
Part of the reason it's endless is because everyone talks passed each other.
Example:
Ghost wrote: I hardly consider any of these people "all setts" players, except maybe Goldeneye. The rest played some of the other popular setts maybe occasionally, but not at a high level. I can't say I saw any of them play Pre, and I played a lot of Pre. Later on maybe we dragged Arntzen into some random ass setts...
You didn't see Krass/Me play pre so we're not pre players in your eyes.

One of the ways we talk passed each other, and it's also clear from your post, is that we compare people from different years in EE. I'll use me as an example. When you were last active I was absolute trash at the game, no doubt about that. When you then see me mentioned in anyone's post and you remember how I played back then it's very understandable you think it's bullshit. But things have changed since 2010, and it's a shame so many people just assume everyone stayed the same level.
Ghost wrote: Pick any one sett, other than liga -- can you name one that all of those players played regularly?
This demonstrates that you're comparing us from a different era. I could write a list of the settings we play, but I'm sure it would fall on deaf ears.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Ghost »

Sure, everyone compared everyone from different eras. And clearly you're better than when I played regularly. I did play some rounds last year after all, so I'm not totally tone deaf. You and Krass might still play together, but did you play as much of the same stuff as the other two?

I can make concessions. But as you noted, I'm making statements based on my observations, just like everyone else did. DavE made his observations, and I disagreed.

My point was mostly this: In a different era, there were few all-setts players when there was a larger variety of setts with their own communities. Each individual community had perfected their craft to some degree, and it was difficult for an all-setts player to learn all of them and also make a name for themselves playing against those people. I think DavE's list represents folks who played mostly Liga, and then got into what popular setts remained when the game had already died. My statement "the list isn't that simple" still stands.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

I'm surprised by your statements, mainly because it's so far from my own perception.
Again: If you're talking about before 2006 or something I can understand how you can say: "The rest played some of the other popular setts maybe occasionally, but not at a high level." But as I've already stated nobody is talking about 2004 krass or 2010 me.

If you're claiming that me and krass at our peak can't compete against the best in P2N TL/SH, P2N Island, Mid TL/SH/DM, Indy TL/SH/DM, Mod TL/SH/DM and of course liga, then I would love to know who those people are that we haven't met.
If that list isn't sufficient to be an all set player then I wonder what settings we're missing.
Ghost wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:23 pm
it was difficult for an all-setts player to learn all of them and also make a name for themselves playing against those people.
Who are these all-setts players?
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

@Arntzen

2004 Krass?

Krass was a legit newb in 2006, as was Assys, I think they would admit that themselves.

I don't even remember you before 2012, either but I'll take your word for it.

You'd do well to stick to talking about the eras you were actually present in and not ones you have no personal experience in except second hand stories from the rejects still taking the game seriously a decade later.

I can't be bothered to go back and check but your lack of knowledge was so ignorant you simply assumed I never played Liga, which I did, on EEC, with lion and ras.

If I'm wrong on that I apologise but it's relevant to the point.

I have no doubt you've established yourself as a top level player in the last eight years here but you really missed the boat on this one. You'd be better off putting those eight years into a more relevant game if you're concerned with competitively being considered the best at something.

I don't think I ever put myself forward as the best player of all time by the way, I just protested the fact I definitely deserve to be on the poll looking at the names currently on there.

You might find this hard to believe, too but I challenge anyone to refute what I'm about to say, several people who were around in this era will corroborate this, too but in 2006, I outright challenged the whole community to Mid SH 1v1s, I talked an extreme amount of shit to everyone too, to raise the stakes as if someone did best me, the humiliation was that much worse.

In a series game nobody came out on top. Not one player. This was strictly 1v1s @ mid sh from March 06-September 06 and imo, I've only heard stories of other players being that consistently dominant, even if it was just one setting, it was THE most popular setting of the era.

Off the top of my head:

Goldeneye*
Assys
Nevermind
Krass
Witchking
Zealot*
Enigma
Buttfreek
Pyro*
Lion
Texas Ranger
Peace
Ras
Cobra
Golf
Signal
ELITE
Thor
Thorn
Dante

All tried, all failed.

* These gave me the toughest 1v1s.

Also I'd like to note, some of those players were easily as good as me in 4v4s/Team games so in the end did my dominance at 1v1s mean much in the grand scheme? It's debatable for sure but I've no reason to lie about my "achievements" on this game.

Those are my genuine, honest assessments/account of the game, 1v1s and the like.

I'm in agreement with Ghost, there's so many facets, settings and modes to the game there's no real objective way of deciding who the best of all time was over 18 years of different populations, eras and metas.

I consider Icestorm the authority on AoC history, lore and informaton. He played all eras at the top level, is an actual historian and the best 4v4 player mid sh ever seen.

I learned all of my info and knowledge in 2006 of the previous best players off Icestorm and he will tell you, as dominant as I was in 1v1s, I never disrespected the previous best players who weren't around anymore by claiming I could beat them or my era is more competitive...which is in direct contrast to you and Witchking (who I fucking trained, by the way) who sit here disrespecting the games lineage and prominent players in an attempt to bolster your claims of superiority. It's not how the truly best players of present eras conduct themselves.

That shit speaks volumes to me.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

As usual you're way off Seizmic lmfao. I'm saying we're not speaking about krass in terms of his skill in 2004 or me in terms of my skill in 2010, but when we were at our peak which is recent. I dno if you're trolling at this point or just plain stupid. How you're able to read the exact opposite if what I'm saying is baffling.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:28 pm
As usual you're way off Seizmic lmfao. I'm saying we're not speaking about krass in terms of his skill in 2004 or me in terms of my skill in 2010, but when we were at our peak which is recent. I dno if you're trolling at this point or just plain stupid. How you're able to read the exact opposite if what I'm saying is baffling.
Lol this is why I don't make serious replies here, I get retard euro shit like this in response.
I'm surprised by your statements, mainly because it's so far from my own perception. 
Again: If you're talking about before 2006 or something I can understand how you can say: "The rest played some of the other popular setts maybe occasionally, but not at a high level." But as I've already stated nobody is talking about 2004 krass or 2010 me.
I understood your point was "we're not talking about 2004 Krass or 2010 me" my point was simple, we are definitely not talking about 2006 Krass, either because he was shit then, too and I didn't even know you played in 2010.

Now would you like an honest discussion or you just going to shitpost like a cunty fucking euro pussy?

Your choice, I've trolled on levels you can't comprehend lad, it's my forte.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

I do not understand you at all. What was the point of saying this:
"You'd do well to stick to talking about the eras you were actually present in and not ones you have no personal experience in except second hand stories from the rejects still taking the game seriously a decade later."
When that's all I've ever done?

Maybe better to login to NeoEE and talk there, or through discord if you want proper discussion.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:55 pm
I do not understand you at all. What was the point of saying this:
"You'd do well to stick to talking about the eras you were actually present in and not ones you have no personal experience in except second hand stories from the rejects still taking the game seriously a decade later."
When that's all I've ever done?
If you read my post in its entirety, I actually asked you to correct me if I'm wrong on this but didn't you assume I never played liga, for instance? You could only have made a false assumption by believing false information unless you just made a claim without any proof at all. In which case that's stupid so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you're not dumb and simply got told wrong information?

I've seen you make other false assumptions about information from the lobby era, too. So you're getting this from somewhere.

In fact, assuming Krass was bad in 2004 but not 2006, for instance, is a perfect example of what I'm saying.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:55 pm
Maybe better to login to NeoEE and talk there, or through discord if you want proper discussion.
I'll have my PC and EE up and running by Friday/Saturday so you can have fun satisfying your ego by beating me at EE, that'll satisfy you more than honest discussions will, IMO.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Icestorm2 »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:28 pm
As usual you're way off Seizmic lmfao. I'm saying we're not speaking about krass in terms of his skill in 2004 or me in terms of my skill in 2010, but when we were at our peak which is recent. I dno if you're trolling at this point or just plain stupid. How you're able to read the exact opposite if what I'm saying is baffling.
What Seizmic is saying, which is elucidated later in his post, is that in 2006 and for a good chunk of 2008 he was a top player in a wide variety of settings on EE and AoC played against the best players of the time. Almost unanimously considered the best in a particular setting, too. Given that, on what basis would you compare him to the people who played throughout the next decade and decide they played to a higher standard? How would you establish lineality?

I'll say for the record, that I observed a lot of Seizmic's games on EE and AoC and consider him one of the best overall players I saw play the game. I would add that when judging him I considered not only how well he played at the time but the potential he showed too. He was a fast learner and good at translating skills and tactics he picked up in other setts to new ones he was trying.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

From what I remember I said I never heard you mentioned in any discussion about the best liga players.

Here is another problem:
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:00 pm
In fact, assuming Krass was bad in 2004 but not 2006, for instance, is a perfect example of what I'm saying.
Did I say otherwise?
Your way of honest conversation includes a hell of a lot of patronizing comments and ridicule.

Here is my argument and it's very simple:

From my POV returning experts have not been able to keep up with the current best (say since 2014-present) except for very few. The vast majority however, of old school experts returning get stomped. Even the ones that stay for months. This, coupled with the fact that everyone from eC who played longer than I did, are saying the level today is higher leads me to believe it is so.


I am not:
Saying achievements by people before 2014 doesn't matter.
Saying if an older player came back and practiced he wouldn't be able to catch up.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:12 pm

What Seizmic is saying, which is elucidated later in his post, is that in 2006 and for a good chunk of 2008 he was a top player in a wide variety of settings on EE and AoC played against the best players of the time. Almost unanimously considered the best in a particular setting, too. Given that, on what basis would you compare him to the people who played throughout the next decade and decide they played to a higher standard? How would you establish lineality?
Krass surpassed Goldeneye before Goldeneye left. Krass has gotten better since then. Goldeneye who has been inactive obviously has not. That's one example of where the linearity comes from.
Another example being:
Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:23 pm
The vast majority however, of old school experts returning get stomped. Even the ones that stay for months.
It's not like everyone from the one era played completely isolated from players from other eras. Most names mentioned here are familiar, even to me who came late to the party.

Let me flip the question you gave to you or seizmic:
How would you compare Seizmic to whoever was considered the best in 2003?
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:23 pm
From what I remember I said I never heard you mentioned in any discussion about the best liga players.

Here is another problem:
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:00 pm
In fact, assuming Krass was bad in 2004 but not 2006, for instance, is a perfect example of what I'm saying.
Did I say otherwise?
Your way of honest conversation includes a hell of a lot of patronizing comments and ridicule.

Here is my argument and it's very simple:

From my POV returning experts have not been able to keep up with the current best (say since 2014-present) except for very few. The vast majority however, of old school experts returning get stomped. Even the ones that stay for months. This, coupled with the fact that everyone from eC who played longer than I did, are saying the level today is higher leads me to believe it is so.


I am not:
Saying achievements by people before 2014 doesn't matter.
Saying if an older player came back and practiced he wouldn't be able to catch up.
Lol @ I'm too lazy to go check so I'll take your word for it.

I mean you expect me to be cordial and non patronizing after replying to 1/10th of my post to laugh at me, call me stupid and accuse me of trolling? Pot kettle black, no?

You didn't outright say otherwise in reference to 04 krass vs 06 krass but it's heavily implied, yes. You talk about "prior to 06" and "04 Krass" which are specific time frames.

I'll stop the insults now, okay?

@returning experts...how long did it take you consistently playing to become as good as you are now? You think an expert coming back after 6-14 years is going to be anywhere close to what they were? So many things could have happened in that time frame too, people actually age in that timespan, you lose a % of brain cells every single year, reaction speed drops, motivation, emotional aspects etc etc

You simply can't use that as accurate proof of anything.

In fact, I think I played for two days in 2014 after not playing competitively since 06 and only having a handful of games in 2012. I lost 3-2 to Krass in mid sh 1v1s. I 1v1'd out of pure boredom, Krass had legitimate motivation to beat me. By all rights he should have utterly crushed me, don't you agree?

Then again, me pointing that out holds as much weight against your argument as you pointing out returning experts get dominated does against mine. So it's simply all moot.

I understand your point but I disagree with it and I think my reasoning holds legitimate weight.

Either way, can we agree with this:

Even IF the era is of higher calibre today, deciding who the undisputed best player of EE history is an exercise in futility and the effort spent would be better put into actually discussing many different players and what made them stand out above their peers? Along with the games rich online competitive history.

For me, Icestorm is the the best of all time and he stopped his dominant 1v1 reign in early 05 in order to strengthen the community and build a great culture of competitive 4v4 games, which he did, brilliantly and we all owe him our thanks for keeping the game going as long as it has, I promise you without him there would be even less players than there currently are. That transcends 1v1s, for me, which he paid his dues in any way.

You haven't addressed my issue with how people like you and Witchking conduct yourselves in relation to EEs player lineage either, compared to other players that were at the top echelon of the games competitive scene and never once felt the need to claim their era is superior to the previous experts of the past who played and dominated but are no longer active.

If I come across like a prick, it's not personal, it's just me but I'm not trying to troll/insult you.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:45 pm
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:12 pm

What Seizmic is saying, which is elucidated later in his post, is that in 2006 and for a good chunk of 2008 he was a top player in a wide variety of settings on EE and AoC played against the best players of the time. Almost unanimously considered the best in a particular setting, too. Given that, on what basis would you compare him to the people who played throughout the next decade and decide they played to a higher standard? How would you establish lineality?
Krass surpassed Goldeneye before Goldeneye left. Krass has gotten better since then. Goldeneye who has been inactive obviously has not. That's one example of where the linearity comes from.
Another example being:
Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:23 pm
The vast majority however, of old school experts returning get stomped. Even the ones that stay for months.
It's not like everyone from the one era played completely isolated from players from other eras. Most names mentioned here are familiar, even to me who came late to the party.

Let me flip the question you gave to you or seizmic:
How would you compare Seizmic to whoever was considered the best in 2003?

The 1v1 scene and community died after 06 (purely talking about aoc mid sh), it's very likely Goldeneye got worse but the difference in skill between me and Goldeneye in our final 1v1s was absolutely massive.

I beat him 5-0 in under 90 minutes by just mindlessly going swords every time, regardless of resource placement. At my peak, nobody came close in 1v1s in mid*, call it bragging but if it's the truth, it's the truth.

Like I said, my dominance in 1v1s didn't translate to 4v4s. Which is the most important game mode of the game, imo.

I'm not saying I was bad in 4v4s but a fantastic 1v1er can be beaten, handily in 4v4s, is my point.

Zealot was better than Goldeneye, too. I watched Goldeneye lose to a couple players I utterly stomped, as well. Goldeneye was the first person to take a lead against me after 5 1v1s at 3-2 but between then and the 20 other 1v1s we had, I had skill improvement spikes several times over, he never became any better than those first five games.

Goldeneye losing to Krass doesn't establish anything when you consider all that.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Icestorm2 »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:45 pm
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:12 pm

What Seizmic is saying, which is elucidated later in his post, is that in 2006 and for a good chunk of 2008 he was a top player in a wide variety of settings on EE and AoC played against the best players of the time. Almost unanimously considered the best in a particular setting, too. Given that, on what basis would you compare him to the people who played throughout the next decade and decide they played to a higher standard? How would you establish lineality?
Krass surpassed Goldeneye before Goldeneye left. Krass has gotten better since then. Goldeneye who has been inactive obviously has not. That's one example of where the linearity comes from.
Another example being:
Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:23 pm
The vast majority however, of old school experts returning get stomped. Even the ones that stay for months.
It's not like everyone from the one era played completely isolated from players from other eras. Most names mentioned here are familiar, even to me who came late to the party.

Let me flip the question you gave to you or seizmic:
How would you compare Seizmic to whoever was considered the best in 2003?
I'd say we have a difference of opinion when it comes to the best players of that time frame, I knew the eec players mostly from team games and AoC. Some were top players in 1v1s (though never the best), but like Lion they weren't nearly as strong in team games. Buttfreek came close to beating Goldeneye and Nevermind by himself in a 2v2 tournament when his ally had intentionally trolled him, in a full 4v4 he was much more valuable to a team than either.

Being an all-sett player on AoC essentially meant Indy TL, Mid SH and Mod TL too. Indy TL effectively died once people started getting banned for the resource glitch over the summer in 2004, leaving really just Mid and Mod as the too settings. No one after 2003 tried to create a serious liga scene on AoC because the civ powers ruined it.

As far as how Seizmic measures up to the best player of 2003, I can only speak for mid that far back(I could speak for Indy too, but I'd be comparing him to a glitcher): I think his expan cav/ballistas could beat him fairly often, I had beaten him with a similar setup during one of the last games I played with him. How motivated he was to play at the time I don't know, he seemed a step behind his usual self and was more concerned with chatting during the game, or how he'd adapted to that combination over a series of games I don't know either--it was something fairly new and for a while unique to me. However, I think the game would be decided by the strength of their style of play rather than one being clearly superior to the other.

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