Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

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Best EE'er of all time?

Samuel
9
6%
Omega
8
5%
ras
16
10%
Epic
9
6%
Wolvy
2
1%
Phobia/Zeke
17
11%
lion_
8
5%
Bones
6
4%
Krass
41
26%
BE
4
3%
Elfanor
6
4%
Lavanger
7
4%
Twisted Bum
2
1%
Goldeneye
18
11%
Captain Nemo
6
4%
 
Total votes: 159

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Arntzen
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm

You didn't outright say otherwise in reference to 04 krass vs 06 krass but it's heavily implied, yes. You talk about "prior to 06" and "04 Krass" which are specific time frames.
I did not imply this. I said "If you're talking about before 2006 or something" and then went on to explain I'm speaking of the present, not that time.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
@returning experts...how long did it take you consistently playing to become as good as you are now? You think an expert coming back after 6-14 years is going to be anywhere close to what they were? So many things could have happened in that time frame too, people actually age in that timespan, you lose a % of brain cells every single year, reaction speed drops, motivation, emotional aspects etc etc
I do not expect a returning expert player who hasn't played forever to play as they did at their peak. Now you can say that I implied this all you want, but I never said this. I agree with what you're saying about reaction speed and motivation.
My point about returning players is this: Practically nobody coming back is able to compete, even the ones that stay and plays for months. This speaks against the notion that these old timers played at a much higher level than the current players. Krass in practically every set is an exception to this when he came back (I would argue that this has a lot to do with him continuing to play RTS games while being gone from EE). Co Death is an exception to this in P2S and P2N. BGC (Chinese player) is an exception to this liga.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
You simply can't use that as accurate proof of anything.

In fact, I think I played for two days in 2014 after not playing competitively since 06 and only having a handful of games in 2012. I lost 3-2 to Krass in mid sh 1v1s. I 1v1'd out of pure boredom, Krass had legitimate motivation to beat me. By all rights he should have utterly crushed me, don't you agree?
Krass came back to EE in October 2013 (I know this because at the time I took screens of almost all games I played or observed). And I think he left the same month, so that wasn't exactly a long period back. At that time he wasn't interested in 1v1s, and just chilled with team games. I do not recall him playing anything at all from then until 2016 when he returned a second time. It's possible you played him in 2014, but if so then he was practically as rusty as you were. I'm curious, do you remember what name he used?
It is not until summer 2016 when he returned properly and that's when I wrote this:
Arntzen wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:35 pm
OK! One ticket to the krass hype train..

Best I've seen.
In 2016 he said the skill level was the highest he's ever experienced and that it had increased since last time (2013). When he returned again early this year he once again said the skill level had increased.

seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
Either way, can we agree with this:

Even IF the era is of higher calibre today, deciding who the undisputed best player of EE history is an exercise in futility and the effort spent would be better put into actually discussing many different players and what made them stand out above their peers? Along with the games rich online competitive history.
I think it's an interesting discussion even though I admit we'll probably never reach a conclusion we'll all agree with. I also think it'd be an interesting topic/thread to talk about EE's competitive history, but I don't see how these two topics are mutually exclusive.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
For me, Icestorm is the the best of all time and he stopped his dominant 1v1 reign in early 05 in order to strengthen the community and build a great culture of competitive 4v4 games, which he did, brilliantly and we all owe him our thanks for keeping the game going as long as it has, I promise you without him there would be even less players than there currently are. That transcends 1v1s, for me, which he paid his dues in any way.
Him, and a long line of other players have done tons to keep this game going.
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:54 pm
You haven't addressed my issue with how people like you and Witchking conduct yourselves in relation to EEs player lineage either, compared to other players that were at the top echelon of the games competitive scene and never once felt the need to claim their era is superior to the previous experts of the past who played and dominated but are no longer active.

If I come across like a prick, it's not personal, it's just me but I'm not trying to troll/insult you.
I guess you're refering to this:
seizmic wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:20 pm
I learned all of my info and knowledge in 2006 of the previous best players off Icestorm and he will tell you, as dominant as I was in 1v1s, I never disrespected the previous best players who weren't around anymore by claiming I could beat them or my era is more competitive...which is in direct contrast to you and Witchking (who I fucking trained, by the way) who sit here disrespecting the games lineage and prominent players in an attempt to bolster your claims of superiority. It's not how the truly best players of present eras conduct themselves.

That shit speaks volumes to me.
What you're saying here is the least charitable take on me and Dave I can think of. Dave saying that based on what he's seen he thinks the level of today's best is higher. At the same time when talking about all setts players he put Lion and Goldeneye on his list of 4, and both of them haven't played in a very long time. Goldeneye stayed the longest and he quit late 2010 I believe.
I think he huge factor contributing to the skill level to rise simply comes from the number of games we've had. There is no doubt in my mind that older players if they stayed would not only follow this rise in skill, but I'm sure if we had more players the skill level would've risen even higher.
If you think we're being disrespectful I think you're reading into something that's not there.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm

I'd say we have a difference of opinion when it comes to the best players of that time frame, I knew the eec players mostly from team games and AoC. Some were top players in 1v1s (though never the best), but like Lion they weren't nearly as strong in team games. Buttfreek came close to beating Goldeneye and Nevermind by himself in a 2v2 tournament when his ally had intentionally trolled him, in a full 4v4 he was much more valuable to a team than either.
Wait, what time frame are you speaking of?
I said Krass surpassed Goldeneye before he left. This is Late 2010 if I remember correctly. I do not remember buttfreak or nevermind playing at this time so we're probably not speaking of the same era.
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm
As far as how Seizmic measures up to the best player of 2003, I can only speak for mid that far back(I could speak for Indy too, but I'd be comparing him to a glitcher): I think his expan cav/ballistas could beat him fairly often, I had beaten him with a similar setup during one of the last games I played with him. How motivated he was to play at the time I don't know, he seemed a step behind his usual self and was more concerned with chatting during the game, or how he'd adapted to that combination over a series of games I don't know either--it was something fairly new and for a while unique to me. However, I think the game would be decided by the strength of their style of play rather than one being clearly superior to the other.
Am I understanding you correctly: You're saying peak Seizmic (when he was at his very best) against the best Mid player in 2003, these games would be decided on strength of style rather than one being clearly superior. So they were very similarly skilled? How did you reach this conclusion?
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by seizmic »

I'll give your post a just reply after a needed nap, also, my mistake it was Summer 2016 I played Krass, not 2014. My bad.

I lost to Lavanger, too.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Icestorm2 »

Arntzen wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm

I'd say we have a difference of opinion when it comes to the best players of that time frame, I knew the eec players mostly from team games and AoC. Some were top players in 1v1s (though never the best), but like Lion they weren't nearly as strong in team games. Buttfreek came close to beating Goldeneye and Nevermind by himself in a 2v2 tournament when his ally had intentionally trolled him, in a full 4v4 he was much more valuable to a team than either.
Wait, what time frame are you speaking of?
I said Krass surpassed Goldeneye before he left. This is Late 2010 if I remember correctly. I do not remember buttfreak or nevermind playing at this time so we're probably not speaking of the same era.
Icestorm2 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:10 pm
As far as how Seizmic measures up to the best player of 2003, I can only speak for mid that far back(I could speak for Indy too, but I'd be comparing him to a glitcher): I think his expan cav/ballistas could beat him fairly often, I had beaten him with a similar setup during one of the last games I played with him. How motivated he was to play at the time I don't know, he seemed a step behind his usual self and was more concerned with chatting during the game, or how he'd adapted to that combination over a series of games I don't know either--it was something fairly new and for a while unique to me. However, I think the game would be decided by the strength of their style of play rather than one being clearly superior to the other.
Am I understanding you correctly: You're saying peak Seizmic (when he was at his very best) against the best Mid player in 2003, these games would be decided on strength of style rather than one being clearly superior. So they were very similarly skilled? How did you reach this conclusion?
I'm speaking of 2006-2008, never played with Goldeneye after Spring 2008, or Krass at all.
Edit: I did play with him later that year in some Mod TL games.

My conclusion is based on my intuition and experience with the players in question. It's not really a question of style, each of them could theory-craft and adapt to the others play-style. In a 1v1, enough games might favor one play over the other, but in a 4v4 whichever won would be a matter of context.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by ArmageddonNY »

Reinstalled this in 2020, definitely feels like i"ve time traveled

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by ApolloN »

Arntzen wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:31 am
seizmic wrote:Really, what's changed?
I'll try to explain my perspective on the topic "player from sierra era versus player from save-ee/NeoEE", maybe it'll make you see where I'm coming from.

When it comes to old experts returning (from November 2008 until the present) there has IMO been a clear gap between them and whoever is considered the current best player, with few exceptions of players that quickly was able to compete. Some examples being: KrasS in all setts, Co Death in P2N/P2S, BONES in liga, Lavanger in Mid/Mod and BGC in Liga. Note that I'm saying compete with the current best, I'm not saying completely dominate. The only player who's returned to EE and been able get more wins than losses as far as I'm aware is KrasS.

The vast majority of the returning experts have simply been outmatched. Really just putting in an average performance. Most of them then left without causing an impact, though some have stayed, played off their rust and adapted to the current meta/playstyle and improved.
Of course one shouldn't put too much emphasis on how someone who hasn't played for years and only sticks around for two weeks or so is performing. But to me certain things are quite revealing, like someone playing a civ/strategy/style that simply won't work anymore and then being stunned by disbelief when they get countered. Or showing a lack of understanding about fundamentals like scouting, map awareness and game reading ability.
It's also quite telling that the old players returning (except for a few exceptions) have to adapt to how the current players play, and not the other way around. Take someone like AOE_WATER [L] who is considered one of the best in P2N. He came back after a break and found that his pocket civilizations and strategies were completely outdated.

To be fair: Out of the players that only really played with rust while they were online and quickly left again, a few played in such a way that they convinced me they must've been really good at their peak. I believe you're one of them in Middle based on the few games you played when you and Icestorm returned. And I think if you were to start playing again it would be interesting to see how good you could get. That being said there hasn't been anyone who's convinced me they're better than the best eCs.

So what's changed?
I believe the skill ceiling has increased. Why? Because I was able to compete with the best in 2012, and I've gotten much better since then. Despite that I still have tough competition today. Returning players find they have to step up their game to compete. Of course, some of the players who still play have also gotten worse. I'm convinced splinter and kirac are just shadows of their old selves at this point. Partly because they play less, partly due to aging and also because they simply don't care as much anymore. Some also plateaued at a certain level because they refused to change/practice and are practically time machines of how games used to be played. Exposing themselves as a step or two behind the very best.

Based on this, and much more (I could go on but I think this sufficiently explains by POV), I'm convinced any old player returning would have a really hard time. At least in the beginning. All sett players like Zeke, Lavanger and BONES were good enough based on what I've seen that I believe they would be able to catch up. But I truly believe they would have to catch up. Of course I could be dead wrong.
Dude, you never played with the best players, when they were at their best. You played for MW, you were a novice and in 2012, there was no one left. We left in 2008 (shut down of the old servers) and when we came back (about 2-3 years later), we just played for fun. Never took the game seriously anymore. People like me played 1-5 games per month and never bothered to improve. You can't really compare the present skill level to the past skill level, because you were never allowed in our games. That maybe hurts your ego, but facts don't lie.
From 2009 until present, there is no competition, so any list, which shows "new expoerts" as the top players isn't valid for the past.

Your argument about the overall increase of the skill level is obviously invalid too.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Arntzen »

ApolloN wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:11 pm
Dude, you never played with the best players, when they were at their best. You played for MW, you were a novice and in 2012, there was no one left. We left in 2008 (shut down of the old servers) and when we came back (about 2-3 years later), we just played for fun. Never took the game seriously anymore. People like me played 1-5 games per month and never bothered to improve. You can't really compare the present skill level to the past skill level, because you were never allowed in our games. That maybe hurts your ego, but facts don't lie.
From 2009 until present, there is no competition, so any list, which shows "new expoerts" as the top players isn't valid for the past.

Your argument about the overall increase of the skill level is obviously invalid too.
So let me get this straight:
1. You speak for everyone of the "best players", all of which came back at the same time and they all didn't care anymore?
2. When you played every day for months on end and we had 100s of games, these games don't count?
3. I'm talking about the skill ceiling not the overall skill level.

Ironically these kinds of posts only makes me more convinced. You may think there is some kind of overwhelming consensus on your side, that's just not the case.

" You can't really compare the present skill level to the past skill level, because you were never allowed in our games."
I've made this point many times before, but people keep bringing this up so I guess I'll have to repeat it:
1. People who did play in those games have said the opposite of what you're saying here.
2. YOU can't compare those games to games in 2016-2018 you never even saw.

I don't know if you've forgotten but in 2013 you rated me among the best, and I improved since then. This doesn't fit your agenda I guess.

I do understand where you guys are coming from though. I stopped in 2018 and have only played a few games here and there after that, with a very casual mindset. I see players now like Tsubasa and Loco and I think there are multiple flaws in their play, and I'm convinced if I came back properly, tryhard training for a month or two I would confidently beat them. Confidently being like 8:2 win/loss ratio. I don't know this for sure though, it's a big if and it's possible they are much closer to my best than I think.
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by _DavE_ »

I don't understand how some of you think you know about the periods of EE where you did not play regularly yourselves.

Seizmic, I am not disrespecting the old school players, but it's blatantly obvious that you are extremely biased towards Icestorm. So of course you're going to rate him highly, and that's fine. I rate him very highly as well, He was a talented player, and a great person.

As for your post about me failing to beat you in 2006. Yeah, that was true, you definitely won more. However, at that time, that was when I was just becoming quite good.

Fact of the matter is, the community now is very small, but the level is 100% the highest it has ever been. Some "good" players do come back, and they do just play for fun and that's fine too.

I think the list for the Best player of all time needs to be altered.

I know this is just a scenario, but I'm going to leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb0uTryLAu4&t=374s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mouhZGUcQKQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st0TDjKHyNM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1yi9TxWDak&t=117s

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Icestorm2 »

Well, you likely won't get a reply from Seizmic any time soon. Though as he said, it's best not to take his tone too harshly. He's always been more bellicose and intense than most in online discussions. He didn't really mean you were being disrespectful towards the older players in the sense of insulting their skill level. Seizmic's position was that it was wrong to compare yourself against guys you never really played with because you couldn't really know anything about them. Back in 2006 he would often be told that he wouldn't have been able to beat the best guys from 2003. Seizmic felt like he was part of a peer-group with these guys he'd mostly never met and that occupying that top spot for any period of time was more important than the comparative skills of the players who had that distinction.

Seizmic felt overlooked in this discussion. I'd say he was right, but there's really no one to blame for that. Nemo started this thread nine years back and he couldn't have been expected to have much knowledge about AoC players or history. Even you weren't there for a lot of his games in 2006, especially the ones in other epochs or on EEC. Mid was by far his best setting, but he quickly excelled at every other sett he attempted to learn. He ended up as a strong player in all settings on AoC, and only lacked some experience with playing certain roles in 4v4s (eg, air in Mod TL). I guess he was mostly disappointed that you didn't bring him up as an honorable mention from AoC.

For what it's worth, I think you guys and Krass in particular have a good claim to be the best players of EE players of all time. I don't really know the history of EE's playerbase though, and could only make a judgment and extrapolation based on what I saw from EE players who frequented AoC from 2003-2008. There appeared to be a progress towards improvement from the top EEC players throughout the time lobby was active. I could have the wrong idea though. I'm not exactly sure how the EC players like Goldeneye matched up against the top non-EC players on the regular servers, but I do recall the general consensus being they were the best on EEC at the time.

Returning players aren't likely to accept that argument on an emotional level though, even if it's factual and logical. The "history" of the game's online community is an important sentiment and to a lot of older players it effectively ended with the servers shutting down in Oct. 2008. The stage and the audience are in a sense just as important as the performers. Some people might be more motivated to improve and play competitively as a way to gain status within the community, rather than holding the skill needed to get there as valuable in itself. I think you could accurately divide AoC and EEC experts generally along those lines actually. EEC players seemed to have a more consistently competitive mindset and favored a more rote approach to the game in general. AoC was a more casual-competitive environment where games were often structured to recreate past games that were really fun. This made most established AoC players difficult to measure too, you really need extensive experience with players in different setts to know their strength, potential and how likely they were to use it.

Also, regarding Enigma--he's a good example of what I'm posting about. He never waved his dick around, wasn't a serious competitive player and was always vulnerable to rushing, but people on AoC consistently mentioned him as one of the best all-around players. A lot of people over the years have misinterpreted that sentiment too. His weaknesses were well-known, and he never tried to excuse them, the consensus was always that his limitations were self-imposed (he was also not adamant about using trebs or ballistas which would have helped him a lot in fighting cavs/ballistas). It might seem like anyone else could be just as good with that kind of allowance. Plenty of other players had that opportunity, however, and none of them could perform to Enigma's level. Nobody ever had to beat him to best considered a top player, but playing to his strengths and successfully challenging him or beating him was always a huge boost to someone's reputation.

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by _DavE_ »

I completely agree with everything Icestorm just said.

I think, for any old returning player/expert coming to EE now, I think it's more a case of wanting to get good again rather than a case of not being able to. They would have to play many games, probably lose a lot to begin with which would hurt their reputation and pride.

However, once adapting to the new meta, and figuring out how certain players play, I'm confident they would get good again. It's just a case of wanting to, and having the time to commit.

Seizmic was one of the strongest middle players I saw on aoc, no doubt. But I stick to my original comment of there's only four players that need mentioning. Different eras, but I've played from 2005 onwards, on and off. So I do think I have a wide range of knowledge and experience on the game.
It's all opinion at the end of the day.

PS Wolvy, you just make yourself look absolutely foolish in your post. Lol

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Clouds »

gla_jo wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:23 pm
seizmic wrote:
_DavE_ wrote:If we're strictly taking all settings into account, then there's only like 3-4 players that need to be considered tbh.

If we're breaking it down into specific settings then there's many more.

But, going off ALL settings, then the list is very simple.

Krass
Arntzen
Goldeneye
Lion

I genuinely don't believe anyone else even deserves to be mentioned (ALL settings, Pre, Liga, Mid, Grens, Indy TL, Mod SH/DM/TL) etc
You listed a guy who never even played in the original EE lobby.

Also, I beat lion_ 4-2 in liga in my first six games at it, he was helping me "learn" the setting, he was better than me at Mod TL which he won 3-1, gren wars? That's fucking scenario level settings. I did play it around thirty times on EEC and won most of my 1v1s by simply rushing my first grens out as fast as possible to the enemies mines, that was enough to beat 90% of the players who played it for years.

Crushed lion in Indy as well, he really didn't know how to micro with Cav very well.

So from your list alone, one of the four players you mentioned I ended up beating more than losing over a wide range of settings.

Also, Witchking, don't forget who made you. "Mini seizmic" - Krass, Assys - 2007.

Here's the real list:

Enigma
Icestorm
Goldeneye
Zealot
Force Field
Lion

Honourable mentions:

ras_ he genuinely took the time to help me learn liga on EEC and was a Jack of all trades, good at everything but never the best.

Pyro_ any setting from the epoch Mid and below, he was a powerhouse.

Buttfreek - first guy to humiliate lion @ mid sh. Great mod player too, underrated.

Special mention for Witchkings list:

Calv lolol

Jesus christ mate, can't believe I'm finally getting mod recognition after over a decade.

As a mid player I think my main weakness was micro skills. Other than that I would rate myself an honorable mention, just as you did. I would say I was an honorable mention for mod too but never got much credit in that community. In both settings there were players solidly a tier above me, but in my best moments I could have gone up against anyone.

icestorm would have claimed that the players of old (the generation direction before me) was generally just better than our generation.
Hey somebody remembers I played this game! This post is mostly in response to the indifference between the players that played during my "prime", and the players I don't remember (or that came after my time).

I think I was the opposite and one of my strengths was micro skills. I think anybody who had played with me during my "prime" years knew I was not built as a 1:1 player. I was much more of a 3:3 and above player. I like to think I was considered on the above average in anything 3:3 up in the MidSh setting. I excelled in long drawn out games where late game strategy took over. I was never much for the rushed games. Someone like seizmic was vastly superior in 1:1 than me.

I think the main issue in this thread is nobody has defined what the best of all time is (and probably you will never get this group to all agree to the same metrics). I don't think you can ever consider someone who is one dimensional as the best of all time. I have seen lion_ thrown around a lot, but honestly, while he was fairly good at 1:1 settings, I never feared him in anything 2:2 or up. In a team game, I would pick him 7th or 8th out of a field of 10. I would say that lion_ was basically the inverse of me. I excelled team games, but tended to struggle in 1:1 style games. Lion_ was never a good team player. This is the same argument why I would not even attempt to make an argument for myself among the best players in the history of EE. I was one dimensional in that anything above Middle(ish) era I was around average at. And I also did not excel in 1:1 games.

For what it is worth, I see a lot of people on this thread that I have never even heard of. Some claim to have gone 85-0 against all of the "best" of my era, but really, I don't even remember their name. While it is definitely possible they could have beat me in 1:1's, I don't remember them. But that is not saying much, as I was not much of a 1:1 player (Unless it was a long game, in that case, I doubt they did). But a lot of these players I would not consider having played during my prime. Who knows though, that could be my old age creeping in.

I also think this discussion is a little one sided, as I could throw several names out that most of you had never played with (except for the people in this thread I consistently played with). I don't think you can compare players from two different time periods, just as in any sports discussion. One thing that is true, is the game evolves and players do. Each generation of players passed down their knowledge and discoveries onto the next and players continued to evolve. Who is to say someone like seizmic wouldn't have continued to evolve if he continued his competitive nature until today?

Anyways, are we defining the "best player of all time" as someone who was good at 1:1? Or in any scenario?

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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Icestorm2 »

I think opinions about the best players are always going reflect the consensus of the communities any given player was involved in. This topic was started by Nemo in the EEC section of the forum, and the criteria seems to be weighted towards 1v1 matchups and proficiency in liga and the wider range of setts that were played on eec. That criteria probably makes sense to people who primarily played eec (though there is still some disagreement about who exactly qualifies as all-setts players).

To AoC players, it wouldn't make sense to use the same criteria because player communities were more distinct and insular. Liga had a weak following on AoC, and the small community that did play it on AoC had abandoned it by mid '03. Aside from that there were four main groups on AoC: Pre-Space, Mid SH, Indy TL and Mod TL. While there was some overlap between Indy and Mod TL each of the setts had pretty distinct rosters of players. Later on, Indy would basically disappear from AoC, and Mid players would slowly get more proficient at Mod TL to the point of a complete merger by the end of the WON Lobby days. From 2003-2006 if you tried to reckon who the best cross-setts player was on AoC, you'd have been limited to a selection of Lion, Enigma and some of the symbols players because no one else traveled that widely until necessity put them to it. The last year the old servers were up, only Zeke and EL!TE really met the requirements you'd use on eec. Everyone else effectively played one or two epochs. Even so, players were usually appraised on their ability in a single given setting, rather than an overall balance of experience.
I think I was the opposite and one of my strengths was micro skills. I think anybody who had played with me during my "prime" years knew I was not built as a 1:1 player. I was much more of a 3:3 and above player. I like to think I was considered on the above average in anything 3:3 up in the MidSh setting. I excelled in long drawn out games where late game strategy took over. I was never much for the rushed games. Someone like seizmic was vastly superior in 1:1 than me.
Mid players on AoC were always peculiar about how they valued 1v1s. You actually might remember this aspect of the community pretty well, lol.

Basically after Paladin left, and until Seizmic rose to prominence, none of the AoC mid players were really competitive 1v1 players. Mid SH on AoC had always been built around the 4v4, and 1v1s were always kind of a diversion for entertainment pitting the top guys against each other. I played some 1v1s when I was at the peak of my game, but I never really hosted open 1v1s.

Among the Mid SH players too, you were always held up to judgment by the observers as to whether or not you'd won "clean." Like if I played Brocker, I had to let him to boom in order to get credit for beating him. If I rushed him it wouldn't have proved anything to the observers. Whereas someone like Sunce could get credit for rushing him. If I was playing Paladin or Greg, however, I had the entire playbook open to me.

Whatever happened in a 1v1, though, had to have applicability in a 4v4 or it was seen as meaningless. Beating someone with cav archers was at one point seen like that, because at the time no one saw them as a viable late game option for 4v4s. Knights were viewed as similarly limited, but knights were always a gamble anyway.

This distinctive attitude towards 1v1s shaped how the majority of us viewed and played 1v1s (as a smaller version of a 4v4). AoC mid players were also generally stronger with the tactical sides of the game too. That's why you guys were all capable of astounding upsets and shocking losses depending on the circumstance. Nobody really said these things out loud at the time, but it seemed to be tacitly understood. It's why no matter who you lost to or how bad you got shit talked for it, you were always going to be a top pick for either captain.

Edit: I think I'll start a topic on the AoC section for nostalgic mid players to jerk each other off.
Edit 2: I got logged out while writing it, and lost a long ass post, so maybe another time

Samuel
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Re: Best EE Player Of All Time!?!

Post by Samuel »

I think many are missing the key issue here ....

We have players who stopped playing in 2006 who never once even witnessed any player who came later, claiming that whatever came after is necessary worse.

That's like a baseball player from 1950 who never witnessed any game after his era claiming that players after the 1950s are necessarily worse.
I honestly wonder if some people are aware of what they are sounding like.

I can't speak about Mid or other sets that Dave and Seizmic were talking about, nor can I speak about AOC.
I can only speak about Liga, and the level has definitely improved massively.

And yes, I don't think anybody has seen Liga players from so many different eras as much as I have. From Elfanor and RS_Gollum, Be, Goldeneye, ras, Krass, Arntzen, Loco, and many more.

Heck, I remember in the earliest stages of the game when people were arguing between Ottomans and Assyrians for Liga middle ages ....

Kudos for players like ras who stayed for a long time and did their best to be competitive .... but no doubt Elfanor, Gollum, Be, wouldn't really stand a chance against any average liga player from today.

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