Discussion

[Captain Nemo]

Sam is right mid is still faster paced. Just cause herik finds the liga start confusing does not mean u have 100 things to do in the liga start. U do in mid sh if u can. Raid, protect, get towers up, get hippoes, kill enemy hunt. Dropoff from both iron and food. Thats alot more than controling a dog dude.
And obviusly u have to adapt to the map just as much in mid sh. Base setup is very important aswell as where to raid.
It's not that i don't have respect for liga or anything cause i do, but to say the start is fast is just plain wrong.

[herik]

All different maps, did random ages for liga, mid swords rush.
4fll-
mid- 860
liga- 902

3fll-
mid-913
liga-877

2fll-
mid-1117
liga-972

1fll-
mid-1431
liga-1189

[herik]

Nemo I love mid more then liga, i'm just saying that all setts require macroing, map management, army management, microing, even liga has a great deal of player speed needed in the early play. sure mids more fast paced, but liga requires other things for instance finding that hippo, I had to switch between cit and dog that were trying to find while, relocating rally point for capital. its more fiddly imo. You can do some testing of your own, I'm sure sams player speed for liga will be quite different to mine.

Anyway you guys have both avoided the first topic- "Explain how to get player speed"

But I do welcome debates so keep going, it's turned rather interesting.

[Samuel]

My player speed for liga is pretty high, it will be anywhere from 4k to 5k ps, though the effective ps will be around 2.5k, as the rest is spam to help me concentrate. If I were to play with no spam, I wouldn't be able to fully concentrate and play at my best. I would say it would be around 1 - 1.5k at the beginning, as there are less things to do, and I spam as a way to warm up myself as the game progresses.
Some players might not need it, good for them

I think 2.5k ps is a good player speed for liga, Krass has around the same and ras too when he plays at his best (and let's not forget Elfanor's 3.5k ps).
To some extent, as I have already said, it's a way to warm up and to keep yourself concentrated (just look at the first minutes of sc2's pros starts, they spam like crazy to begin getting used to the later, more intense, stages of the game.

So what do I do in the first stages of the game, besides spamming? Well, aside from sending the citizens to collect different resources, I try to spend these resources just as soon as they are gathered, with an extreme attention not to make queues, and mostly as soon as I notice this is happening, I will TC immediately (unless the situation requires otherwise, or it's too risky to TC in that moment).

Mostly I keep every single on of my resources below 200 throughout the whole game, unless I need a more expensive unit/building. It's entirely useless to have 700 unspent wood or even 300 unspent food that you are not using. Make buildings, make a farm, and TC, or make more upgrades.
It's not really easy to keep all resources below 200 throughout 20 or 30 f11 game, and if you are able to do it with a relatively low player speed, then good for you, I just can't

As for the dog, you need to keep moving it all the time, checking the timing of his mines, I don't think I ever keep my dog still for even a single moment of the game, I have lost so many games just because of the dog (obviously I'm referring to Ligasetting).

As for the other moments when I'm not managing my economy, I just press 3 (I put the main army on 3), because it will make it quicker to have access to my army if I ever get ecokilled, will just allow me to react more quickly.
I'll then proceed to keep scouting with the dog (if it's still alive), make more citizens/army/upgrades, forcing resources and have the goal to keep them below 200 throughout the whole game, by making farms, buildings and TCs.
As soon as I am done managing the scouting/base, I will press 3 again and go to my army, and as soon as I have more resources I will go back to base and spend them, again making more TCs, more buildings, more army, and more citizens. Switching between different town centers with H, as you make citizens of course, will also help you have a better overall control over your base.
Then I'll press 3 again.

This is just if I'm playing the game defensively
It's quite different if you are attacking and have to do it just whilst you are attacking, especially if you are controlling more than one group


This is my playing style and how I make my player speed, which would be around 2.5k, maybe 3k, if I'm not spamming, though as I said I use the spam to keep concentrating.
When I attack with 2 or 3 groups of army and keep managing the base, in those moments my PS will reach a spamless 4-5k or so, something I wouldn't be able to do if I hadn't kept my self warmed up in the previous stages.


Still, this hasn't got to do with Ligasets, it has got to do with my playing style, as I think I would try to do the same in Mid SH too if that was my set. But it would be harder, why? Because it's a faster paced set.
Besides, player speed is a personal thing, if I were to have Pope of Dope's playerspeed I would probably find myself playing at a below average level: he can make it with such a low player speed? Good for him!

To be honest I don't understand how come some people make it with a relatively low player speed .... but if they make it, win games and enjoy themselves, good for them


I hope this explains pretty well "how to get player speed", as well as why the player speed I get on ligasettin isn't connected to the supposed speed of a liga game.

[CusTomm_]

Well u get player speed by pressing hotkeys, at least the player speed in stats... I remember Nemo knows the exact calculation of ps, dont you ?

Still i am pretty sure, you dont even need them in sh settings tbh. I remember choosing cits with mouse only and everybody else did so as well. I am pretty sure a "mouse-player" gets his 12 grens f11 3 or 15 swords or w/e as well as a "hotkey-player" does.
I guess you just say its faster, because you became accustomed to hotkeys. Play one year with mouse only and u will be okay

[CusTomm_]

To put it more bluntly ... IQ has a stronger influence on Ligasetting than it has on Mid SH.

Do u measure ur IQ by how good u play Liga ? Nice...

[Captain Nemo]

no sadly I can't seem to figure it out. logic tells me it's (hotkeys*x+mouseclicks*y)/time = PS .... but something wrong with that formula cause when finding x and y I get different results and never the exact right numbers, tho it comes close. By that formula x is something like 50 and y something like 17... but it's not the correct formula. it's been a while since I did any maths sry

anyway herik thats an interresting test Ill try to run that myself. I doubt I'd have much more than 500 in liga.

[Captain Nemo]

4f11:

Liga: 587
Mid SH: 1185
Mod DM: 3061

Simulated starts vs a comp... I can't be bothered doing the shorter versions too. I'd imagine other people needed even more speed in mid sh as I pick most of my cits with mouse lasso, and gain less ps that way.

[lightnessking.]

I am pretty sure a "mouse-player" gets his 12 grens f11 3 or 15 swords or w/e as well as a "hotkey-player" does.
I guess you just say its faster, because you became accustomed to hotkeys. Play one year with mouse only and u will be okay

I can't disagree more than 100%. If it's possible, please explain me so I can disagree even more.

[PeLlE]

I only use hotkeys tos elect my cits in the very beginning. That makes like 10 of them. And yes I was able tog et my 10+x swords/grens just like anyone else did.
I might never have been a perfect or great palyer but I guess I could keep up with most.. and that with a playerpseed of highest 400.. usually 300 something.
And lightness you suck - just for the record.
Anyways some people (looks at Sam) seems tho go for playerspeed as if it was a trophy. You can evry well play with barely or even without using hotkeys and will most likely do just as good (unlike you are playing some uber nerd confusing his hand with a hammer.. then again I believe if youw ere a non mouse using uber nerd you'd have the same chances once again..)

The average player doesn't understand player speed and its significance in the early stages of the game and macroing your economy, debate away guys...

The average player doesn't understand, a gopod palyer won't need it and a 'nerd' will brag with it.

(Note that enrd is not ment in an uber bad way :p)

[ben45]

lightness is somewhat a decent player these days fyi,

dumb debate, i seen samuels liga video, tapping c 50x when he has 4food or something stupid
stupid stuff like this which isnt nessicsary
mouse hotkeys same thing depending how good your hand movements are for the mouse and how fat your fingers are for your hotkeys tubbys

[Samuel]

Anyways some people (looks at Sam) seems tho go for playerspeed as if it was a trophy.

Actually, I never talk about my player speed, unless in specific situations like these, when I'm being asked by the author of the topic to join in the conversation

Ehh Pelie, why do you even talk, I mean I have 5k ps ... my PS is 30x higher than yours! And as you pointed out earlier, IQ = PS, which means my IQ is 30 times higher than yours

To put it more bluntly ... IQ has a stronger influence on Ligasetting than it has on Mid SH.

Do u measure ur IQ by how good u play Liga ? Nice...

No, read above, I strongly agree with Pelie on this, IQ = PS

lightness is somewhat a decent player these days fyi,

dumb debate, i seen samuels liga video, tapping c 50x when he has 4food or something stupid
stupid stuff like this which isnt nessicsary
mouse hotkeys same thing depending how good your hand movements are for the mouse and how fat your fingers are for your hotkeys tubbys

Posts like these really make me smile lol

[Captain Nemo]

wouldn't say any other set sam. It's pretty important in liga yes, but just as much in most other sets cause it's down to finding strats, making the right moves the right time the right place etc, and u have that in all sets. The starts in liga are almost* as standardized as a normal gren start. You just have more of them... At least thats what I see when u play, and kazter for that matter.

* the no reveal map can change your original build order a little.

zeke is right btw. ps doesn't matter as long as u get what u need done fast and pope is the best example of a low speed can do very good.

[Samuel]

wouldn't say any other set sam. It's pretty important in liga yes, but just as much in most other sets cause it's down to finding strats, making the right moves the right time the right place etc, and u have that in all sets. The starts in liga are almost* as standardized as a normal gren start.

define "standardized"

At least thats what I see when u play, and kazter for that matter.

True... perhaps, let's say, ras would see it differently though.

i seen samuels liga video

Thats' nice
I would never watch a video of yours, you know xD

[dan]

Who cares about player speed.. Such a useless tab